The International Council of Museums and the Controversy about a New Museum Definition. A Conversation with Lauran Bonilla-Merchav, Bruno Brulon Soares, Lonnie G. Bunch III, Bernice Murphy, and Michèle Rivet,

In oduc ion And eas E ges* and Da id Dean The In e na ional Council o Museums and he Con o e sy abou a New Museum Defini ion –A Con e sa ion wi h Lau an Bonilla-Me cha , B uno B ulon Soa es, Lonnie G. Bunch III, Be nice Mu phy, and Michèle Ri e h ps://doi.o g/10.1515/iph-2022-2039 Published online July 1, 2022 Abs ac : In 2019, an Ex ao dina y Gene al Assembly In e na ional Council o Museums (ICOM) me in Kyo o, Japan o o e on a new museum de ini ion. Among o he hings, hecon o e sialp oposaldesc ibedmuseumsas “democ a ising, inclusi e and polyphonic spaces o c i ical dialogue abou he pas s and he u u es” ha should also aim “ o con ibu e o human digni y and social jus ice, global equali y and plane a y wellbeing.” The mo ion o pos pone he o e, which was suppo ed by a la ge majo i y in Kyo o, caused a c isis in he mos impo an in e na ional o ganiza ion o museums and museum p o essionals. In he yea s since, ICOM De ine led an elabo a e consul a ion p ocess esul ing in a newly e ised museum de ini ion o be o ed on a ICOM’s Ex ao dina y Gene al Assembly in P ague in Augus 2022. In his con e sa ion, se e al p ominen membe s o ICOM who ha e been deeply in ol ed in he deba es abou a new museum de ini ion ake a c i ical look a he consul a ion p ocess be o e Kyo o, he easons o pos - poning he o e, he wo k o ICOM De ine, and also sha e hei expec a ions o P ague. Keywo ds: In e na ional Council o Museums, ICOM, mu- seums, museum de ini ion In Augus 2020, he New Yo k Times w o e ha “museums a e ha ing an iden i y c isis.” 1 Al eady a yea be o e, The A Newspape had spoken abou a “ eud”and “qua els”inside o he museum wo ld. 2 And in Ma ch 2021, he Museums Jou nal s a ed ha he e was “wa a e”be ween e o me s and conse a i es. 3 Wha hey ough abou was he ques- ion: wha is a museum? o , mo e specifically, abou a new museum defini ion o be adop ed by he In e na ional Council o Museums (ICOM). ICOM, which was ounded in 1947, is he mos impo - an in e na ional o ganiza ion o museums and museum p o essionals in he global communi y wi h nea ly 50,000 membe s om o e 138 coun ies. ICOM has 123 na ional commi ees om Albania o Zambia and se en egional alliances (A ab, Asia-Paci ic, Eu ope, La in Ame ican and he Ca ibbean, Wes A ica, No he n Eu ope, and Sou h- Eas Eu ope). The e a e also 32 in e na ional commi ees ocusing on speci ic ields o in e es such as cos umes, conse a ion, his o ic house museums, memo ial museums, na u al his o y, and e hical dilemmas. Wi hin he o gani- za ion he e a e ou wo king g oups and eigh s anding *Co esponding au ho : And eas E ges, IPH edi o s, Munich, Ge many, E-mail: [email p o ec ed] Da id Dean, IPH edi o s, O awa, Canada, E-mail: [email p o ec ed]a 1Alex Ma shall, “Wha Is a Museum? A Dispu e E up s O e a New Defini ion: An in e na ional e o o upda e he defini ion o wha museums a e has been me wi h esigna ions and poli ical in igue,” New Yo k Times, Augus 6, 2020, h ps://www.ny imes.com/2020/08/ 06/a s/wha -is-a-museum.h ml. 2Vincen Noce, “Wha exac ly is a museum? Icom comes o blows o e new defini ion,”The A Newspape , Augus 19, 2019, h ps:// www. hea newspape .com/2019/08/19/wha -exac ly-is-a-museum- icom-comes- o-blows-o e -new-defini ion, h ps://icom.museum/en/ news/museum-defini ion-p ocess- he- wo-final-p oposals/. 3Ge aldine Kendall Adams, “Ideological i pe sis s as Icom es a s museum defini ion consul a ion: ‘Wa a e’be ween e o me s and conse a i es has no subsided since Kyo o con e ence,”Museums Jou nal, Ma ch 2, 2021, h ps://www.museumsassocia ion.o g/ museums-jou nal/news/2021/03/ideological- i -pe sis s-as-icom- es a s-museum-defini ion-consul a ion/. In e na ional Public His o y. 2022; 5(1): 19–27 Open Access. © 2022 And eas E ges and Da id Dean, published by De G uy e . This wo k is licensed unde he C ea i e Commons A ibu ion 4.0 In e na ional License. commi ees, including he Commi ee o Museum De ini- ion, P ospec s and Po en ials (MDPP) esponsible o he discussion o a new museum de ini ion which is a he hea o he con e sa ion ha ollows. A ICOM’s Gene al Assembly in Vienna, Aus ia in 2007, he ollowing de ini ion o a museum was adop ed: A museum is a non-p o i , pe manen ins i u ion in he se ice o socie y and i s de elopmen , open o he public, which acqui es, conse es, esea ches, communica es and exhibi s he angible and in angible he i age o humani y and i s en i onmen o he pu poses o educa ion, s udy and enjoymen . 4 In he yea s ollowing, he e was a g owing conce n ha his de ini ion no longe ully ep esen ed museums in he con empo a y wo ld, and in 2016, he MDPP was c ea ed o e-examine he de ini ion in ligh o “new condi ions, obliga ions and possibili ies o museums.” 5 The commi ee p oposed a new defini ion which was pu be o e he Ex ao dina y Gene al Assembly in Kyo o, Japan in 2019: Museums a e democ a ising, inclusi e and polyphonic spaces o c i ical dialogue abou he pas s and he u u es. Acknowledging and add essing he con lic s and challenges o he p esen , hey hold a e ac s and specimens in us o socie y, sa egua d di e se memo ies o u u e gene a ions and gua an ee equal igh s and equal access o he i age o all people. Museums a e no o p o i . They a e pa icipa o y and ans- pa en , and wo k in ac i e pa ne ship wi h and o di e se communi ies o collec , p ese e, esea ch, in e p e , exhibi , and enhance unde s andings o he wo ld, aiming o con ibu e o human digni y and social jus ice, global equali y and plane a y wellbeing. 6 Be o e his adical e ision was pu o he o e, howe e , a mo ion was b ough o wa d by ICOM Eu ope, suppo ed by ICOM Canada and many o he s o pos pone he o e. Despi e opposi ion om na ional commi ees such as ICOM Aus alia and ICOM Uni ed S a es, he mo ion o pos pone he o e p e ailed by 396 o es o 157, wi h wo abs en ions and se en no o es. 7 Many easons o he decision we e oiced: dissa is- ac ion o e he p ocess, objec ion o complex academic ocabula y, s a emen s ha seemed o impose obliga ions which would be un ealizable in ce ain coun ies, and ha he p oposed wo ding was mo e like a mission s a emen and call o ac ion han a de ini ion. 8 I was clea ha hose suppo ing he mo ion o pos pone would o e agains he new defini ion i hey we e o ced o cas a o e. Fo some ICOM membe s, and o many ou side s, i seemed ha ICOM had chosen o ake a poli ical s ance, ejec ing a defini ion ha add essed con empo a y conce ns in a o o a e y adi ional one. This was a iew sha ed by bo h edi o s o In e na ional Public His o y, And eas E ges and Da id Dean, espec i ely also membe s o ICOM Ge many and ICOM Canada. The decision caused signi ican esigna ions and he ini ia ion o a new consul a i e p ocess, led by ICOM De ine. We a e now coming o an end o h ee yea s o in ense ac i i y a he in e na ional, egional, and na ional le els. This led o he c ea ion o a sho lis o de ini ions o which wo we e announced in May 2022: P oposal A A museum is a pe manen , no - o -p o i ins i u ion, accessible o he public and o se ice o socie y. I esea ches, collec s, con- se es, in e p e s and exhibi s angible and in angible cul u al and na u al he i age in a p o essional, e hical and sus ainable manne o educa ion, e lec ion and enjoymen . I ope a es and communica es in inclusi e, di e se and pa icipa o y ways wi h communi ies and he public. P oposal B A museum is a no - o -p o i , pe manen ins i u ion in he se ice o socie y ha esea ches, collec s, conse es, in e p e s and exhibi s angible and in angible he i age. Open o he public, accessible and inclusi e, museums os e di e si y and sus ain- abili y. They ope a e and communica e e hically, p o essionally and wi h he pa icipa ion o communi ies, o e ing a ied ex- pe iences o educa ion, enjoymen , e lec ion and knowledge sha ing. 9 The o es a e now in: P oposal B will be pu o he o e a ICOM’s Ex ao dina y Gene al Assembly in P ague in Augus 2022. We el ha he ime was igh o o e eade s a con e sa ional a icle abou he p ocess and poli ics o ICOM’s discussion o e de ining a museum in he con em- po a y wo ld. This is no jus an issue o museums, bu o anyone in e es ed in his o y, he i age, and cul u e. I is o i al conce n o all public his o ians. We in i ed se e al p ominen membe s o ICOM, some o whom we e in a o o he new defini ion p oposed in Kyo o and some who we e no , o join us in a con e sa ion. We would like o hank hem once again o hei eadiness o do so. 4h ps://icom.museum/en/ esou ces/s anda ds-guidelines/museum- defini ion/. 5h ps://icom.museum/en/news/ he-ex ao dina y-gene al-con e ence- pospones- he- o e-on-a-new-museum-defini ion/. 6h ps://icom.museum/en/news/icom-announces- he-al e na i e- museum-defini ion- ha -will-be-subjec - o-a- o e/. 7The deba e can be ollowed on he wi e eed o Uni e si y o Leiden’s D . Csilla A iese beginning wi h he pos on Sep embe 6, 2019: h ps:// wi e .com/CsillaA iese/s a us/1170161521814458368. The o ing esul s we e cap u ed by he in a pos on Sep embe 7, 2019. 8h ps://www.museumsassocia ion.o g/museums-jou nal/opinion/ 2019/10/01102019-defini ion-jus -s a -o -con e sa ion/#. 9h ps://icom.museum/en/news/museum-defini ion-p ocess- he- wo-final-p oposals/. 20 A. E ges and D. Dean 1 The Pa icipan s Lau an Bonilla-Me cha holds a doc o al deg ee in a his o y. Wi h na ional and in e na ional expe ience, she is a lec u e , esea che , cu a o , and consul an o a , cul- u e, museums, and he i age. Cu en ly she is adjunc p o esso a bo h he Uni e si y o Cos a Rica and he Na- ional Uni e si y o Cos a Rica, and se es on he boa d o he Museum o Cos a Rican a . She has published on mode n and con empo a y Cos a Rican a , as well as on opics o museology. Lau an is easu e o ICOM Cos a Rica and also easu e o he Regional Alliance o ICOM LAC (La in Ame ica and he Ca ibbean). She cu en ly co-chai s he ICOM S anding Commi ee o he Museum Defini ion. B uno B ulon Soa es is a museologis and an h opologis based in B azil, p o esso o museology a he Fede al Uni- e si y o he S a e o Rio de Janei o (UNIRIO), and p o esso in he Pos -G adua e P og am in Museology and He i age (UNIRIO/MAST). He coo dina es he Labo a o y o Expe i- men al Museology a his uni e si y, wo king closely wi h communi y-based museums and wi h se e al p ojec s a he g ass oo s le el in ol ing cul u al he i age and museums. Cu en ly he is chai o he ICOM In e na ional Commi ee o Museology (ICOFOM) and co-chai o he S anding Commi - ee o he Museum Defini ion (ICOM Define). He is he au ho and edi o o se e al publica ions on Museology and He i- age, including he se ies o books “Decolonising museology” (ICOFOM/ICOM). His esea ch cu en ly ocuses on museums decolonisa ion, communi y ac ion, and he poli ical uses o museums and cul u al he i age. Lonnie G. Bunch III is he 14 h Sec e a y o he Smi hso- nian. He assumed his posi ion June 16, 2019. As Sec e a y, he o e sees 21 museums, 21 lib a ies, he Na ional Zoo, nume ous esea ch cen e s, and se e al educa ion uni s and cen e s. Two new museums – he Na ional Museum o he Ame ican La ino and he Smi hsonian Ame ican Women’s His o y Museum –a e in de elopmen . Bunch was he ounding di ec o o he Smi hsonian’s Na ional Museum o A ican Ame ican His o y and Cul u e and is he fi s his o ian o be Sec e a y o he Ins i u ion. In 2021, he ecei ed F ance’s highes awa d, The Legion o Hono . Be nice Mu phy se ed nine yea s as a membe o he Execu i e Boa d o ICOM, Pa is (six yea s as Vice- P esiden , 1998–2004), hen chai ed ICOM E hics Com- mi ee Chai o se en yea s (un il 2011). She is an Hono a y Li e Membe o ICOM (Pa is) and he Aus alian Museums and Galle ies Associa ion (Canbe a). She has cu a ed in- e na ional and Aus alian exhibi ions o con empo a y a ; published books and essays on a , a is s, a chi ec- u e, museology, and museums, while ha ing a long- s anding commi men (since 1978) o ad ancing indigenous a is s and Fi s Na ions’sel - ep esen a ion in museums. She coo dina ed ( o ICOM’s 70 h anni e sa y celeb a ion, in Milan, 2016) a olume o essays on e hics and museums: Be nice L Mu phy (ed.), Museums, E hics and Cul u al He i age (Rou ledge, UK, and ICOM, Pa is, 2016). The In e na ional Council o Museums and he Con o e sy abou a New Museum De ini ion 21 Michèle Ri e is, since 2019, Vice-Chai o he Boa d o T us ees o he Canadian Museum o Human Righ s. She is also a Boa d membe o ICOM-Canada (In e na ional Council o Museums, Canadian Commi ee) and ICOFOM (In e na ional Council o Museums, In e na ional Com- mi ee on Museology). She ob ained a mas e ’s deg ee in museology om he Uni e si y o Mon eal in 2015. Du ing he s udies, she pa icula ly ocused on he ela ionships be ween Fi s Peoples and Museums. Now a lawye o he Ba eau du Québec, she was he fi s judge-p esiden o he Quebec Human Righ s T ibunal in 1990, a posi ion she held un il 2010. P e iously she had been Commissione o he Law Re o m Commission o Canada om 1987 o 1990 and a judge o Quebec’s You h Cou om 1981 o 1987. Michèle Ri e was Vice-P esiden o he In e na ional Commission o Ju is s (ICJ) in Gene a om 2010 o 2017. In 2005, he Uni e si y o O awa awa ded he an hono a y doc o a e o he in ol emen in he p omo ion o human igh s bo h in Canada and in e na ionally. In 2011, he Quebec Cou awa ded he a gold me i o he en i e ca ee in he judi- cia y. In 2015, she ecei ed he Me i and he i le Ad o- ca us Eme i us om he Quebec Ba . Michèle Ri e was in es ed, as Membe , in o he O de o Canada in 2018. She is also an hono a y membe o he Socié é Québécoise de d oi in e na ional. 2 The Con e sa ion 10 IPH: You all ha e been e y ac i e in he museum wo ld and o cou se in ICOM. Do you ha e a special childhood memo y o going o museums o a pa icula momen ha igge ed you in e es and cu iosi y in museums? When did museums become impo an o you? LBM: I was always e y in ol ed in he cul u al wo ld because my mom is a hea e pe son. And he e in Cos a Rica mos o he a s a e unded by he Minis y o Cul u e. And so i is kind o a igh kni communi y, and I was awa e ha he e was always g ea suppo o he pe o ming a s in Cos a Rica, especially music. The museums we e de i- ni ely no ge ing enough suppo . I was p obably in high school when I no iced his and I don’ know why because I didn’ go o museums ha o en. I was de ini ely a he hea e all he ime, dance music, hea e , bu no so much museums. Bu I mysel was an a is and hen wen o college and hough I was going o s udy a chi ec u e and hen wen he ou e o a his o y and ended up ge ing a doc o a e in a his o y. And so, o cou se, he kind o second se o lash memo ies ha came o my mind when I hea d his ques ion was: I was o una e enough o s udy bo h my unde g ad and g ad deg ee in New Yo k Ci y. And so ha was a an as ic place o s udy a and being a hose museums and ha ing lash momen s o museum g andeu in my mind o jus pe sonal momen s s anding in on o wo ks o a o ha ing he oppo uni y, o example, o s udying a medie al manusc ip . I was jus like, my goodness, wha is his? So ha ’s de ini ely my hough s on museums. LB: I hink my ea lies memo y o museums and my in ol emen was p obably six h g ade as a 12-yea -old. We wen o he Clois e s in New Yo k on a school ip and I couldn’ belie e he e we e sui s o a mo . I didn’ know I was no supposed o ouch hem, and I knocked one o e . And we all go h own ou o he museum. The nex day he p incipal yelled a us: how da e you emba ass ou elemen a y school? I emembe hinking, his s u mus be eally impo an i we jus go in ouble o i . And i jus led me o consciously go back o museums, whe e I came o ecognize ha i was ou collec i e memo y. Ul ima ely, as a schola and a he Smi hsonian, whe e I’ e spen mos o my ca ee , I ealized ha in some ways you had he bigges can as o pain on. I hough ha o ackle he issues ha we ca ed abou , issues o ai ness o inclusi i y, ha i should be on he bigges can as. So o me, i was an oppo uni y o say I was so y o knocking o e ha sui o a mo and also o pain on a bigge can as. BM: I g ew up in Melbou ne, which had a ema kable a collec ion. My i s encoun e wi h ha collec ion was an occasional e en o en called “a ainy day ou ing”in one’s childhood. In Melbou ne, i was qui e no mal o amilies o all classes o backg ounds a some s age o ake child en o he museum, which in mos cases was co- loca ed wi h he imp essi e S a e Lib a y. Melbou ne’s Lib a y had an ex ao dina y Reading Room, wi h high bookshel es su ounding you om all di ec ions, bu also eceding because i was a huge, ca e nous space. F om ha space, you wen up some s ai s leading owa ds he na u al his o y museum (in he same building). Bu a he op o he s ai s was a axide mied, monumen al 10 The con e sa ion was eco ded ia Zoom and was edi ed o cla i y and b e i y. 22 A. E ges and D. Dean p esen a ion o he mos amous aceho se in Aus alia, called Pha Lap, which was he oized like a pe son in many people’s imagina ion. And om Pha Lap, leading away om he na u al his o y collec ions and u he up ano he s ai case was he s a e’s a collec ion. And he e we e ex ao dina y “old mas e ”wo ks o a o be ound up he e. So my i s encoun e wi h he museum wo ld was one which in e connec ed he wo lds o lea ning –books wi h na u al his o y – ocks, ossils –and hen his wo ld o a opening beyond in eally a con e sa ional expe ience. Wha I maybe p ojec back on o ha expe ience was he in e connec ion o na u al his o y, he his o y o he wo ld o a , o he imagina i e li e, and he wo ld o lea ning. BB: Ac ually, he e a e many, many possible answe s o his ques ion, bu I’m going o y o gi e he mos hones one. As a kid, mos o us used o go o he Na ional Museum in Rio, which is whe e mos o us i s go ou expe ience wi h he museum. Un o una ely, we don’ ha e i anymo e [ he Na ional Museum was des oyed by i e in 2018]. I is being ebuil . Which made his e en mo e emo ional because I usually ask his ques ion o my s uden s a he beginning o he semes e , and he mos o hem usually e e ed o he Na ional Museum. So i is a big e e ence o me. Bu also, I come om a ci y ac ually ou side o Rio, which is a smalle ci y ha has an indigenous name: Ni e ói. In my childhood, he e was no museum in my own own, so we had o go o Rio, which was like a eling. I is no e y a , i is like wo hou s away. Bu o us, as a kid, i was a eling o ano he uni e se and especially o go o he big ci y whe e he museums we e. And so he school ips o Rio we e like he bigges disco e y o us, and he e was his sense o finding some hing new. My amily was no e y cul u al, bu I hink in a way I ound in he a wo ld a way o exis as an indi idual. I used o pain and o wo k wi h a , hough I ha e ne e wo ked wi h a museums, su p isingly. So my fi s isi ha I eally ecall igge ing my in e es o he museum wo ld was when I isi ed he fine a museums in Rio, which is like a big museum e y inspi ed by Eu opean museums o a . And o me, i was a shock coming om a small own o see ha so close o me he e was such a huge ins i u ion wi h so many wo ks o a and some hing ha eally inspi ed me. Bu I hink wha made me wan o become a museologis was, I hink, a li le bi like wha Be nice was saying, he possibili ies o disco e ing di e en hings. When I was a eenage , I fi s a eled o Eu ope and isi ed he Na u al His o y Museum in London. I always conside ed ha momen he bigges disco e y because we didn’ ha e science mu- seums like ha in B azil. And so o me, i was like, wow, a museum can also be ha , i can be he a museum, bu i can also be his. So o me, i was he possibili y o wo king wi h comple ely di e en hings like ha ing he a wo k bu also ha ing he na u al his o y in my own field o p ac ice. MR: My i s ca ee was in law. I was he Chie Jus ice o he Quebec Human Righ s T ibunal p esided o 20 yea s ill 2010. And when I e i ed, I decided o go back o my i s lo e –and my fi s lo e was museums. As a law s uden in Pa is doing a PhD, I had he oppo uni y o aking some cou ses in Egyp ology a he Lou e. So I wen back o uni e si y wi h much younge people han me, and I go a mas e deg ee in museology 2015. I linked human igh s wi h museology. Pu he ocus on he Abo iginal people, Fi s Na ions. This is my new li e. I’m qui e old, bu a new museologis . And I’m e yp i ileged obewi hICOMCan- ada, wi h ICOFOM [In e na ional Commi ee o Museology], and also o be he ice chai o he Canadian Museum o Human Righ s. Now i is ime o me jus o go wi h my passion, and my passion is eally museums. Museums ha e a e y impo an social ole o play and museums could be and should be ac o s o social change, as cou s could be. Bu I’m su e ha museums can play ha ole. IPH: Be nice, wha was behind ha d i e o s a a e- o m commission on a new museum defini ion in 2015? And could you sha e wi h us you iews on he p oposed new defini ion ha came up o discussion in Kyo o and also he deba e ha ook place a ound i ? BM: Discussion o ICOM’s“museum”de ini ion began as a back as 1998–99. I was a c i ical momen in ICOM a ha ime, when o ces we e u gen ly clus e ing a ound he need o change. Museums people we e p ojec ing ideas o wa d in o a new cen u y and agi a ed abou ways in which museums needed o change how hey unc ioned. And his b ough a en ion o ICOM i sel and how i unc ioned. I had jus been elec ed Vice-P esiden o ICOM and was asked by he P esiden and Boa d i I would chai a Re o m Task Fo ce o look a he whole o ganiza ion o ICOM –which became known as he ICOM Re o m Task Fo ce (ICOM-RTF). The only so o ex ca hed a [on my own au ho i y] decision I made was ea ly on: I decided, We’ e no going o spend ime on he S a u es o we’ll ne e ge any hing impo an done abou o ganiza ional unc ions. I also ound ha he S a u es pe mi ed a mo e libe y o ac ion and e o m han people imagined. The e was almos no hing in he S a u es ha es ained museum people and ICOM om ac ion o change. A c ucial S a u es s a emen was he de ini ion o a museum, which looked old and a bi us y. Bu I ealized ha we could no ocus on ha because i would equi e a s a u o y change ha would lead us in o long o mal The In e na ional Council o Museums and he Con o e sy abou a New Museum De ini ion 23 p ocesses o deba e, while i was impo an o ge on wi h u gen e o m wo k. RTF wo ked and consul ed widely o e a yea , and de eloped conc e e p oposals o change ha I compiled in an ex ensi e epo (adop ed in Ap il 2000) which analyzed he whole o ganiza ion. (How did each pa unc ion? Wha we e i s key pu poses? How could i change o be i o a new cen u y). Colleagues and all in e na ional Chai s o commi ees had almos a yea o conside he 57 Re o m P oposals and hei easons; so ha when i inally came o o ing a he Gene al Assembly in Ba celona (6 July 2001), he e o ms had been discussed h ough ICOM’s plena y sessions many imes. The e’d been wo k also wi h he Execu i e Boa d o o mula e he i s -e e Mission and Values s a emen s o ICOM, and he o ganiza ion’sfi s iennial S a egic Plan (all con ained in he Re o m Task Fo ce’s Repo ). As a esul , 57 o ganiza ional e o ms we e passed unani- mously, wi hou abs en ion. Tha p ocess o ms he basis o my belie ha ICOM is no a body ha is esis an o change; i is always possible o p opose new ideas and achie e change in ICOM. Bu i you go h ough a p ocess whe e you a e seeking o e o m o change some hing subs an ial in ICOM, i is ex emely impo an o be clea , o consul , and o es ablish a p ecise me hodology. The ICOM “Museum”de ini ion e o m was de e ed because i was in he S a u es, and equi ed a sepa a e, u he p ocess. I w o e abou he de ini ion in ICOM News in 2004 and said hen ha i seemed o me like an old ca pe ha ’s been s i ched many imes and epai ed, bu i had become wo n ou ; i eally needed o be deaccessioned as a museological a i ac . Bu in my iew, i isa p ecise echnical ask o wo k on some hing like a new museum de ini ion, which also has legal implica ions. This is no a ask ha can be led use ully by comple ely open plena y se ies o mee - ings wi hou any me hodology. I hink i was inc edibly ill- ad ised o go ou o he whole o ICOM (2016–2019) asking o opinions abou museums, aising such a le el o in e ac ion in all o he Na ional Commi ees, In e na ional Commi ees, Regional Alliances, all pa s o ICOM, wi hou a me hodology, wi hou any clea way o b ing all o ha in e ac ion p o- g essi ely in o some disciplined o ma . So when jus a ew weeks be o e he Gene al Assembly in Kyo o (2019), a single defini ion was ci cula ed wi hou commen a e h ee yea s’ wo k, i should no ha e been su p ising o people ha i caused such dismay among many ci cles. Howe e , since Kyo o, B uno and Lau an ha e gone h ough exac ly he igo ous kind o p ocess, and i is been ICOM-wide, ha ’s needed o gain ca e ul consul a ion which ul ima ely will b ing you down o pe haps wo sen ences (no mo e), ha a e p ecise, clea ly unde s and- able, and can be used as a e e ence wo ldwide, including in legal documen s o cul u al policies. IPH: You a e implying ha he p ocess was he majo p oblem. Lonnie, you we e in Kyo o oo and we e in ol ed. Do you wan o espond? LB: I jus ha e a e y di e en iew. My sense is ha he p ocess may ha e been lawed, bu he poli ical issues go in he way o he eal con e sa ion. Fo me, his was a cla ion call o museums o hink and a way o eimagine hem- sel es and o eimagine ela ionships. My no ion was ha in Kyo o, o he de ini ion, I migh no ha e used “poly- phonic”and e ms like ha . Bu I hink ha he no ion o sugges ing ha museums ha e o e hink hei alue p op- osi ion, he no ion ha museums ha e a con empo a y esonance was e y, e y powe ul o me. My conce n in Kyo o was simply ha I eally hough ha , whe he he p ocess was lawed o no , you ei he ga e he de ini ion an up o down o e. I didn’ like pos poning, e en hough p obably i u ned ou o be he be e solu ion. I hough i eally wen agains wha I expec ed o happen in Kyo o, and I was disappoin ed, candidly. So much o he con e sa ion he e made me hink abou a p o ession ha was much less bold and c ea i e han I wan ed i o be. LBM: The g oup o us in he Museum De ini ion, P os- pec s and Po en ials commi ee (MDPP) eally did begin e y subs an ial wo k ha led o p ecisely wha Lonnie is alking abou : he abili y o come o wa d wi h a good basis and wi h good eason. Yes, in ac , museums ha e changed. I hink wha needed o happen was con inued consul a ion wi hin ha p ocess. Wha you, Be nice and Lonnie said, makes i e y clea ha he p ocess was lawed. Pe haps no he whole p ocess, bu i was d awn o a close oo soon. Th ee yea s was no enough ime o come up wi h a d as i- cally changed de ini ion because o he ac ha , as Be nice says, i is like a wo n-ou ca pe . I is jus been s i ched and mended. I lo e he me apho . One o he hings ha has uni ed B uno and me, wha enabled us o wo k so well oge he , was ou pe cep ion ha in Kyo o membe s we e gene ally happy wi h he di- ec ion MDPP was going, bu ha hey wan ed o be con- sul ed. Bu i became so poli ical and people we e saying, Oh no, i is bad o no, i is good. IPH: Some ou side c i ics ocused on he di ficul lan- guage o polyphonic spaces, which was a so o academic language. The no ion o museums being democ a izing mu- seums, being inclusi e, being spaces o c i ical dialogue, was mo e accessible. Ou side s looking in on ha deba e s uggled wi h he no ion why museums should no be democ a izing. Why hey should no be inclusi e and why no 24 A. E ges and D. Dean spaces o c i ical dialogue. In he media, his was some imes po ayed as a esul o ha pos ponemen . So we e hose hings a s ake o was i mos ly he p ocess? LB: Michelle’s poin abou social jus ice is e y impo an o me. While I saw a lo o wha was abou p ocess, I also hea d his eal deba e abou whe he museum ins i u ions a e o wa d-meaning, abou social jus ice, o mo e inclusi e. F om wha I hea d, i wasn’ simply a p ocess issue. I eally c ea ed a undamen al deba e. As an academic, I lo e hose deba es. We jus didn’ ha e he igh mechanism o ac ually ame hose deba es and w es le wi h ha . I you we e om he ou side and you we e jus aking no es, you would say ha his is eally abou hose who wan change and hose who don’ . And ha may be simplis ic, bu ha ’s hewayi seemed a ha momen . Wha I wan o know is, how much o his is simply a p ocess-d i en ailu e o how much o i is abou al e ing isions o he oles and possibili ies o museums. MR: I was in Kyo o and i was an absolu ely an as ic week. I was a momen um ha may ne e happen again. Righ : i was abou he p ocess. Righ : i was abou he con en . I also was abou he ac ha he e a e wo ds ha don’ ha e he same meaning o ou , en people si ing in a oom. I eally applaud he i ali y o membe s o ICOM. And I hink i is eally a p omise o he u u e. I was much mo e abou he p ocess, bu i was, and he p ocess was comple ely unaccep able. I emembe ha we go he new p oposal, when many people we e on holiday in July, so i was nea ly impossible e en o consul ou membe s. This is he eason why we in Canada we e he i s coun y ou side o Eu ope o ask o a pos ponemen wi h ICOM. Bu I ound he i ali y o ICOM membe s in Kyo o absolu ely an as ic, and he museum de ini ion was alked abou a b eak as , a lunch ime, and e en when ha ing a d ink in he e ening. BB: Lis ening o all o you, I keep hinking ha he e is an aspec o his p ocess ha is de ini ely poli ical. I e y much see he museum de ini ion as ou in angible cul u al he i age. I is some hing ha we ha e had o so long, and e en he deba e is pa o his he i age. As a membe o he Commi ee o Museology (ICOFOM) I pa icipa ed in my i s session in 2006 in A gen ina, and i was abou he museum de ini ion. This was all ha people wan ed o discuss. And in a way, in he end, we we e a li le bi us a ed because he e was no such a g ea change in 2007 and we s ayed basically wi h he de ini ion ha we had. Bu I hink he ac ha we ha e had his de ini ion o so long, i has become pa o ou he i age. We know i is e y di icul and e y poli ical o change he i age. We don’ know i wha e e we a e going o p opose in his nex s age in he nex ew mon hs is going o be app o ed, because he e is such a high esis ance agains change. I conside i na u al in a way, bu a he same ime p oblema ic, because museums a e changing. The e is ano he aspec ha I would like o b ing a en ion o, which is how ICOMi sel has changed. I nowhas 45,000membe s. The ac ha we ha e so many mo e membe s and so many mo e di e se membe s om di e en places makes his p ocess much mo e complex han when he cu en de ini- ion was discussed. So I hink i is na u al when you a e ying o change some hing ha is so adi ional and so oo ed in he o ganiza ion, i is di icul o accomplish such a change. Bu a he same ime, he ICOM ha we ha e oday canno be he same and canno s ill alue he museum he same way as i was alued in he 70s. BM: My iew was ha he p ocess o examining he museum de ini ion was opening up so many impo an ques ions and issues ha in my own li e I ha e ough o since I i s wen o Tasmania in my wen ies, eaching a his o y in an a school he e, and lea ned wha happened in he Black Wa [ ough be ween Abo iginal peoples and B i ish colonis s om he mid-1820s o 1832]. (Tha unda- men ally al e ed my li e he ea e as a pe son.) So wha wo ied me abou he e no being a clea MD p ocess was ha ,on heonehand, he ewe esomanyene gies obe opened up, libe a ed, and ca ied o wa d in he eimagining o museums. A he same ime, I knew qui e well knew ha qui e a numbe o na ional commi ees would become agi a ed because he de ini ion was in hei law. ICOM I aly had ough o yea s o ge he ICOM de ini ion accep ed le- gallyso ha i couldp o idep o ec ion agains go e nmen al mo es ha we e made o p i a ize museums, o example. IPH: B uno and Lau an, you we e pu in cha ge o he g oup ha es uc u ed he p ocess [a second ime, a e he Kyo o Gene al Assembly in 2019]. Can you b iefly desc ibe ha new p ocess and also he expe iences you’ e had? Do you s ill see a i along some o he lines ha we ha e dis- cussed o has his p ocess, in spi e o he ailings o Kyo o, led o some hing ha you hink will ein igo a e ICOM? LBM: In he ime be ween Kyo o and he c isis o es- igna ions [nine membe s o ICOM’s council and execu i e boa d esigned in he mon hs ollowing Kyo o, including p esiden Suay Aksoy and chai o he museum de ini ion commi ee, Je e Sandhal] he e was a s uggle wi hin ICOM. Suddenly we had no p esiden , and he MDPP2 g oup didn’ eally e en know i we we e going o con inue wo king. As ICOM mo ed on, MDPP2 eg ouped, bu B uno and mysel we e no chai ing i a ha poin . We led a g oup o people ha we called he me hodology subcommi ee o come up wi h a comple ely new me hodology. The me h- odology subcommi ee was emendously challenging because he e was his poli ical i . The e we e igu es wi hin he subcommi ee and wi hin ICOM who we e e y The In e na ional Council o Museums and he Con o e sy abou a New Museum De ini ion 25 s aunchly in a o o s aying wi h he s a us quo, a he han jus unde s anding ha we’d been asked o mo e o wa d and make i wo k. We managed o come up wi h a me hodology ha enabled a p ocess ha le some oom o lexibili y. I hink i was e y success ul. The ac ha he me hodology was c a ed by membe s wi hin ICOM who in a sense ep esen ed he wo supposed g oups helped. The i didn’ eally exis wi hin ICOM be o e. Somehow, he poli iciza ion o he de ini ion p ocess led o he e being his sense o wo g oups. So he wo k ha we did was emendously challenging and we had o inco po a e bo h o hose supposed g oups. The expe iences B uno and I ha e had in he las se e al mon hs, aking pa in webina s and such, made us awa e ha he e a e mo e p og essi e commi ees, egions, coun ies, na ional commi ees, in e na ional commi ees, and mo e conse a i e ones. This is some hing ha he esul s also show, bu I hink ha ’s jus he na u e o he spec um o museum wo k a p esen . We’ e inding wha seems o be a so o middle g ound. BB: Ou g ea es di icul y h oughou his p ocess was dealing wi h di e ences o opinion. Bu I would no call i a eal i and no e en a pola iza ion. I was e y di icul o ind a consensus among 20 people inside his commi ee wi h many di e en poin s o iew, bu I can say ha bo h o us a e e y p oud o his wo k, because i was only possible o ge o he poin whe e we a e now because we eally we e able o in ol e e e yone in his p ocess. We ecen ly launched se e al ounds o consul a ions, also as a way o measu e he le el o di e si y and he po en ial con lic s wi hin he o ganiza ion. And we we e hones ly expec ing much mo e con lic and much mo e pola iza ion, and wha we ound was eally di e en oices ying o engage in dialogue. The p oblem o cul u al ansla ion is a e y ac i e one, because we ha e a de ini- ion ha ’s ne e going o be uni e sal, bu i is used as a uni e sal ool. In ou las consul a ion, we p oposed i e de ini ions, i e p oposals and a leas ou o hem had a high numbe o o es. And I hink ha ’s a g ea s a emen o he ac ha Kyo o was no as simple as he media wan ed o pain he pic u e. I was much mo e complex. IPH: So a e you confiden o success in P ague? BB: No a all, because i is a huge p ocess. We a e always wonde ing, a e we he e ye ? A e we no he e ye ? We’ e no su e. Bu we know ha we ha e enough ma e ial o his nex ound o conc e e p oposals. Bu a he same ime, we also know ha i is a bu eauc a ic p ocess and a poli ical p ocess. I is impossible o please e e yone, bu he de ini ion needs o ha e wo hi ds o he o es. So, we a e no su e ha i is going o pass. Bu wha we would like o be su e o is ha we did e e y hing we could. LBM: To keep he cu en de ini ion, only one hi d o he o he o ing membe s need o say we don’ wan a change and ha ’s enough no o change, because we need wo hi ds o make a change. Tha ’s jus he way i is. Bu i a new de ini ion does no pass in P ague, I don’ know wha he o ganiza ion’s going o do. I would be a si ua ion whe e i is like, now wha happens? Because we ied many di e en ways, we consul ed and consul ed and consul ed o he poin o exhaus ion. And we’ e done i as objec i ely wi hin a ield ha is so emendously subjec i e. LB: I wan o applaud B uno and Lau a o he g ea wo k ha you’ e doing. I hink he ques ion in my mind is: his p ocess no only explo ed he di e si y o museums; I hink i explo ed he issu es ha sepa a e us. So, one o he ques ions in my mind is how do we heal, ega dless o whe he i passes o no ? Wha a e he s eps o heal as an o ganiza ion? Because I hink he e a e a lo o people ha I alked o a ICOM-US and o he s, who say i is beyond he de ini ion now. I is now a ques ion o , is his an o gani- za ion ha can emb ace he o ali y o who we a e? So, he ques ion o me is, wha do we pu in place o heal, ega dless o he one hi d o he wo hi ds? LBM: I makes me hink o he e y ecen ex e nal e iew documen ha o e s some ideas o how he o ga- niza ion can heal. I ’ll be in e es ing o see i people emb ace he new p oposed de ini ion o no . Possibly, jus possibly, i i is emb aced, hen people will also emb ace he p ocess and he changes ha wen abou wi h his p ocess. So i is eally in e es ing o us o hea , o me o hea Be nice alk abou 1999 and pe iods o c isis and he g ea amoun o consensus ha was eached wi hin wo yea s. Bu I don’ belie e we would in any way in 2022 ha e ha gene al sense o e e ybody o ing in he same di ec- ion as i used o be. I emembe going o p e ious mee ings and e e ybody jus o ed yea abou e e y hing ha was ecommended. And in 2019 i was like, wow, his is exci ing. Some hing’s happening. And so I hink ha i is possible ha we will be able o emb ace he opening up o he p ocess has been emendously mul i- ocal all along he way, pa icipa o y in ways ha ICOM has ne e been be o e. We could p obably imp o e me hods o pa icipa- ion and so on. Many hings a e going o be necessa y o es o e ai h in ou o ganiza ion. Bu maybe, i a new de ini ion is app o ed, i can kind o help s a ha healing p ocess. BM: I ha e e e y con idence in he wo ld ha a new de ini ion will go h ough in P ague. I i s con on ed he some imes-ex ao dina y cul u e o hose mee ings many yea s ago (when I i s a ended an ICOM mee ing in Pa is, in 1994) and someone said ha i s uden s we e admi ed o ICOM, he would lea e. And I emembe suddenly inding 26 A. E ges and D. Dean mysel on my ee , which I ne e in ended o be, s anding up and being gi en he mic ophone o say: “In my opinion, an o ganiza ion ha did no hink abou i s young mem- be s was an o ganiza ion ha didn’ ca e abou i s u u e!” Bu you see i all comes back o ca e ul consul a ion and p ocess. One o he 57 o ganiza ional e o ms ha we e adop ed in 2001 (in Ba celona) was ha he e would be a pe cen age o s uden membe s admi ed o ICOM –again, wi hou objec ion. I’m u ning o speak now wi h ex ao - dina y admi a ion and huge confidence: ha he esul s o he wo k ha B uno and Lau an ha e ca ied h ough so ho oughly since 2019 ha e e e y chance o p oducing a new ICOM museum defini ion ha will be accep ed (in P ague, Augus 2022). By he way, ICOM does no need o seek a de ini ion o si on op o o he defini ional documen s in he museums wo ld, bu o p o ide an ancho ing defini ion in i s o gani- za ion and S a u es, connec ing o o he co e documen s. Tha gi es us a baseline o all o hese collec i e and a ied defini ional e o s wo ldwide –no si ing on op bu benea h hem; no ep essing o he e o s, bu in ac welcoming hem and ein o cing cul u al di e si y, inclusi eness, and compa a i e achie emen s ac oss he wo ld o museums. The e will be o he documen s ha may be much mo e ambi ious, go much u he and o e much mo e de ail on specific issues ha a e eme ging and will con inue o eme ge. My poin comes back o picking up all o hose inno- a o y ene gies and ca ying hem o wa d. C ea ing an In e na ional Obse a o y o p og essi e museum de elopmen s as a dedica ed body wi hin ICOM could be pa o ICOM’s ongoing wo k o suppo inno a ion and p omo e museums’social impac . No single idea would be imposed on any membe s o Commi ees; ins ead you would be ha es ing mul iple ideas, p og ams, ini ia i es om di e en con ex s ac oss he whole o ganiza ion; and ha would ha e an i iga ion e ec o ICOM’swo k as a global body. MR: As o he s, I jus wan o applaud he an as ic wo k ha was done o he las h ee yea s by ICOM De ine and he consul a ions ha ook place. My only ques ion is abou s a egy. Do you ha e plans o P ague? The s a egy o a mee ing is almos as impo an as he con en o ha mee ing. BB: The eason why we had ou ounds o consul a- ion was o allow he mos commi ees o pa icipa e. So a , we ha e had esponses om 116 commi ees. I is be ween 70 and 80 pe cen o he whole o ganiza ion, which is a ma k ha we ne e eally eached be o e in o he consul- a ions. Bu we did no only wan mos o he commi ees o pa icipa e, we wan ed a b oad geog aphic dis ibu ion. The wo No h Ame ican commi ees pa icipa ed, and in he second place was La in Ame ica, wi h 68 pe cen pa icipa ing, which was a highe pe cen age han in Eu ope. Bu i was in consul a ion 2 ha we ealized ha he e we e less A ican commi ees pa icipa ing and so we o ganized webina s in ol ing A ican commi ees and also ied o iden i y why hey we e ha ing di icul y in pa icipa ing. Some commi ees a e s ill es ablishing hem- sel es, o ha e e y ew membe s, and i was especially di icul du ing he pandemic. We had a highe a e o pa icipa ion om A ica in he ollowing consul a ion hanks o all hese p ocesses in ol ed. So i has been a lea ning cu e o us o eally know how he di e en commi ees wo k. We’ e now going o wo k on he wo op de ini ions, he wo op p oposals om he i e, and we a e going o conside all hecommen s,e e y hing ha wascollec eddu ing consul a ions ou o p esen o he ICOM Ad iso y Council o a inal decision on which de ini ion is o be o ed. In he end will a i e a one inal de ini ion o p esen in P ague. LBM: I wasn’ di icul o ge he Eu opeans o pa ici- pa e. They eel like he bigges s ake holde s, whe eas pe haps in o he pa s o he wo ld, people had been a bi mo e eluc an o pa icipa e. So we did an ex ao dina y amoun o webina s h oughou a yea and a hal whe e we we e in i ed by commi ees who asked us o come alk o hem abou his p ocess because you know, you ge he email, bu he email is jus so d y. Ha ing i p esen ed made commi ees eel mo e emb aced and so hey ook pa . The A ican example was jus p obably he mos e iden , bu his happened in di e en egions a ound he wo ld. Wi h ICOM A ab i was o he ICOM De ine membe s om he egion who made an e o and held an ac i i y he e. The in en ion has always been o y o ge as much as we can om a ound he wo ld and o make e e ybody pa icipa e and eel in i ed o his consul a ion p ocess. We a e p oposing a de ini ion o 2022, bu i can’ eally s op he e. One o he hings ha was eally in e es ing h oughou his p ocess has been o wi ness how en iching he con e sa ions ha e been. Many o hem wi hin com- mi ees hemsel es. They ne e held webina s o jus alk abou wha museums a e abou . And now hey we e, and hey we e seeing colleagues wi h di e en mindse s and how you can lea n om each o he . Tha ’s eally an impo an lesson om his en i e p ocess. And also how impo an i is o gi e mo e emphasis on egional wo k wi hin ICOM: s eng hening he egional alliances and ha ing people eel ha hey ha e spaces o discuss close o home and hen ake pa in he global con e sa ion. Be nice, I lo e you op imism abou i . We a e e y cau iously op imis ic abou he esul s. The In e na ional Council o Museums and he Con o e sy abou a New Museum De ini ion 27