Chilosi, Albe o; Ca ne ali, Emilio; Pede sen, And é
A icle
'Unde s anding socialism om he ou side and om he
inside': In e iew wi h Albe o Chilosi
Eu opean Jou nal o Economics and Economic Policies: In e en ion (EJEEP)
P o ided in Coope a ion wi h:
Edwa d Elga Publishing
Sugges ed Ci a ion: Chilosi, Albe o; Ca ne ali, Emilio; Pede sen, And é (2024) : 'Unde s anding
socialism om he ou side and om he inside': In e iew wi h Albe o Chilosi, Eu opean Jou nal o
Economics and Economic Policies: In e en ion (EJEEP), ISSN 2052-7772, Edwa d Elga Publishing,
Chel enham, Vol. 21, Iss. 1, pp. 1-13,
h ps://doi.o g/10.4337/ejeep.2024.01.01
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‘Unde s anding socialism om he ou side and
om he inside’
In e iew wi h Albe o Chilosi
Albe o Chilosi is a o me P o esso o Economic Policy in he Depa men o Economics
a he Uni e si y o Pisa, I aly. A e ob aining a deg ee in Law a Pisa, he ea ned a scho-
la ship o Wa saw, ecei ing a Diploma in Economic Planning in 1968 and a Doc o a e in
Economics in 1972. He has been mainly ac i e in he a ea o Compa a i e Economics,
he Economics o Socialism, and he Economics o T ansi ion. As a chai man o he I alian
Associa ion o Compa a i e Economic S udies, he has coope a ed o o ganise he ound-
ing o he Eu opean Associa ion o Compa a i e Economic S udies, se ing as a membe
o i s i s Execu i e Commi ee. As a Senio Associa e Membe o S An ony’s College,
Uni e si y o Ox o d (UK), he has aken pa in i s esea ch in he a ea o Economics o
Eas e n Eu ope. He has also con ibu ed in he a eas o Mac oeconomics and G ow h
Theo y. While he e a e nume ous examples o Wes e n schola s who ha e s udied
he socialis sys em om he ou side, as well as Eas e n schola s who ha e s udied i
om he inside, Chilosi ep esen s a a e case o a schola who has managed o s udy
he sys em om bo h pe spec i es simul aneously.
Le ’s s a wi h you educa ion.
I g adua ed om law school in Pisa in 1965. Bu e en be o e I g adua ed, I had come o
he conclusion ha law did no in e es me ha much. I had become in e es ed in sociol-
ogy. Then I ook he Science o Finance exam wi h An onio Pesen i, who was a well-
known economics p o esso and an impo an igu e in he I alian Communis Pa y
(PCI). Be o e he wa he had also been imp isoned o an i- ascis ac i i y. When I me
him, while he was a p o esso in Pisa, he was a sena o o he I alian Communis Pa y
(PCI). La e , when I wen o s udy in Poland, I saw ha his ex books on economics –
o Ma xis o ien a ion –hadalsobeen ansla ed he eandwe ebeingusedbyPolish
s uden s.
I did my hesis wi h him. I was i led ‘Financial Policy and S able Economic De el-
opmen ’. I was a ime when Keynesian heo y domina ed economics. The idea ha he
ask o he s a e was o achie e ull employmen h ough ac i e economic policy in e en-
ions, in pa icula iscal policy, was qui e widesp ead. While w i ing he hesis he ollow-
ing p oblem had occu ed o me: ull employmen can be achie ed h ough di e en
combina ions o consump ion and in es men . Wha sha e o capi al accumula ion in
na ional income would be op imal? Wi h a sha e o one he e would be no consump ion.
Wi h a sha e o ze o he e would be no g ow h. Looking in o he li e a u e I came ac oss
he answe p o ided by he Golden Rule o Accumula ion, de eloped pa icula ly by
Phelps (1961) in he amewo k o Solow’s (1956) neoclassical model o economic
g ow h. The ule said ha among he a ious pa hs o s eady economic g ow h, he e
is one ha would p o ide he maximum possible consump ion o e ime, he one in
which he a e o in e es (i.e. he ma ginal p oduc i i y o capi al in he model) was
This is an open access wo k
In e iew
Eu opean Jou nal o Economics and Economic Policies: In e en ion, Vol. 21 No. 1, 2024, pp. 1–13
Fi s published online: Ap il 2024; doi: 10.4337/ejeep.2024.01.01
Jou nal compila ion © 2024 Edwa d Elga Publishing L d
© 2024 The Au ho
equal o he a e o g ow h. This, as we shall see, p o ided me an impo an s a ing poin
o being accep ed as a doc o al s uden la e in Wa saw.
Indeed, a e g adua ion you ea ned a Diploma in Economic Planning –in 1968 –and a Doc-
o a e in Economics –in 1972 – om he Cen al School o Planning and S a is ics in Wa saw.
How did he choice o go o Poland come abou ? We e you a eal socialism ‘en husias ’?
No, I was a schola ships en husias ! Since I s a ed uni e si y in 1960, I was able o li e
basically on schola ships un il my e i emen in No embe 2012, conside ing uni e si y
appoin men o be a peculia kind o schola ship. And ge ing a schola ship o Poland
o o he Eas Eu opean coun ies a e g adua ion was easie han ge ing one o mo e
sough -a e places in he Wes . The schola ships we e gi en on an equal exchange
basis: as many mon hs o schola ships we e gi en, o ins ance, by he I alian go e nmen
o Poles, as many mon hs we e gi en o I alians by Poland. While he e was a big p essu e
om he Polish side o ex end my s ay in I aly, he e e se was no ue, hus I was able o
enew unchallenged my Polish schola ship o a o al o h ee yea s. I chose Poland o
all he possible Eas Eu opean des ina ions because a he ime i seemed o me o be
he mos in e es ing place o go. And e ospec i ely, I hink i was indeed he igh
choice.
Those we e yea s o g ea social u moil in Poland. In 1964, o ins ance, he e had been he
amous ‘Le e o 34’add essed by well-known Polish in ellec uals o P ime Minis e Józe
Cy ankiewicz agains he egime’s cul u al policy. Wha was he uni e si y en i onmen like
in Wa saw be o e he Ma ch 1968 io s?
A he beginning my acquain ances we e mos ly ellow s uden s a he School o Planning
and S a is ics li ing like me in he s uden house in Madalinskiego S ee . I emembe wo
episodes in pa icula . One is a con e sa ion I had wi h a ellow s uden who was a sup-
po e o he egime. He old me ha he was om a poo peasan amily and hanks o he
s a e and he communis egime he had been able o s udy. Ano he dialogue ha s uck
wi h me was be ween my wo oomma es. They we e alking abou he condi ion o Pol-
ish wo ke s, and hei a he mise able li es. They said hey p ac ically could a o d o ea
only b ead and onions (chleb i cebulka).
Who did you wo k wi h once you a i ed in Poland?
In Poland I was in oduced by a ellow I alian s uden o P o esso Kazimie z Łaski, who
was wo king on economic g ow h heo y. He was a s uden o Kalecki, al hough o mally
Łaski was he chai and Kalecki had a he ime some o m o associa ion wi h his chai .
Łaski had a peculia biog aphy. He had pa icipa ed in he Resis ance and he Wa saw
Up ising. He was able o su i e he wa by changing his o iginal Jewish name o a Polish
one o which he was able o acqui e an iden i y ca d. A e he wa he had become a
majo in he poli ical police, wi h an assignmen ha co e ed he uni e si y sec o . How-
e e , acco ding o wha I was old, he esigned in p o es a e a s uden was badly bea en
by he police. A e some yea s o s udy a he Pa y school o cad es and a he Academy
o Poli ical Sciences, he s a ed eaching a he School o Planning and S a is ics, e en-
ually becoming in p ac ice a s uden , as well as men ee, o Kalecki.
When we me , Łaski became e y in e es ed in he opics I men ioned o him: neoclassical
g ow h heo y and he golden ule o accumula ion.
Kalecki’s la es achie emen was his book In oduc ion o he Theo y o G ow h
o a Socialis Economy, published in Polish in 1963, which s i ed qui e an in e es .
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The English edi ion was no published un il 1969 (Kalecki 1969), wi h a ansla ion o
he second Polish edi ion published in 1968.
Łaski hus p oposed ha I de elop a compa ison be ween neoclassical g ow h models and
Kalecki’s heo y o g ow h o a socialis economy, since hey we e bo h supply-de e mined
heo ies o g ow h. A he same ime, I was di ec ed o a end he diploma s udy in Economics
o Planning. I was a cou se on planning mainly o ganized in English o g adua e s uden s
coming om de eloping coun ies, o which he occasional g adua e s uden s om capi alis
coun ies we e also admi ed. A e comple ing he diploma pape on a i s compa ison
be ween Kalecki’s g ow h heo y and neoclassical models, I con inued wo king on he subjec .
O e all, my doc o al disse a ion ook qui e a ew yea s o comple e. E en ually I submi ed
he hesis in 1970. In 1971 I was also able o publish a comp ehensi e e iew a icle o
Kalecki’sbookinEconomics o Planning (Chilosi 1971), a he ime he main jou nal con-
ce ned wi h he economics o planning and he socialis economies.
Wha did Kalecki hink abou you wo k?
Wi h Kalecki I had a iendly ela ionship on a pe sonal le el. Ye , o ell he u h, he was
no e y happy wi h wha I was doing as a as my doc o al esea ch was conce ned. The
main hesis o my esea ch, in ac , was ha Kalecki had a i ed in an au onomous and
independen way a conclusions e y simila o hose o Solow’s neoclassical g ow h
model and i s de elopmen s. The majo di e ence was ha unlike he Wes e n a ie y,
Kalecki did no use di e en ial calculus, pe haps because i smacked o ma ginalism o
simply because i was ou side his ame o mind. He was mo e com o able wi h his ig-
o ous use o simple algeb a, which could also allow a wide audience han he use o di -
e en ial calculus. Bu in Kalecki’s (1969) book he e was i ually all o neoclassical
g ow h heo y. And he had come o i comple ely on his own. I was a ema kable in el-
lec ual unde aking. Howe e , he ac ha I was poin ing ou ha he wo heo ies we e
no ha dissimila (indeed he s a ing poin o bo h was an adap a ion o he Ha od–
Doma equa ion) somehow de ac ed om he o iginali y o Kalecki’s con ibu ion.
Tha is why he was no ha happy wi h my wo k.
Ha ing said ha , I epea , we had a good pe sonal ela ionship. He was e y kind. He
in i ed me o his home. And he was happy o me o a end his semina s on g ow h
heo y.
Wha we e Kalecki’s posi ions on he deba e on socialism in Poland?
Kalecki hen held a egula pos g adua e semina on he heo y o g ow h. I was a g oup o
schola s ha mainly discussed echnical ma e s and did no deal wi h s ic ly poli ical
issues, so o speak. Bu I emembe a ime when, a e he semina , he e was some alk
on ma ke socialism. Someone asked Kalecki wha he hough abou ma ke socialism.
He ook a c i ical s ance. I is jus a model o monopolis ic compe i ion, he said, wi h a
a he de oga o y unde one. He did no like ma ke socialism. And hen hey asked
him: how would you like he Polish economic sys em o be? He eplied, mo e o less: a
less olun a is ic planned economy, and a socialis planned economy o a a ional and ea-
sonable ype.
Kalecki, did no like ‘ olun a ism’. Tha was he idea ha excessi e objec i es could be
achie ed h ough poli ical and ideological mobilisa ion. I was an app oach ha did no
ake in o adequa e conside a ion he cons ain s ha he economic sys em aces. The e-
o e, his p e e ences g a i a ed owa ds a sys em o planned, bu ‘ easonably’planned
economy. He wan ed he planne s o se ealis ic objec i es.
In e iew wi h Albe o Chilosi 3
© 2024 The Au ho Jou nal compila ion © 2024 Edwa d Elga Publishing L d
Was his he eason why his collabo a ion wi h Polish economic ins i u ions was no e y
ui ul?
Kalecki had been appoin ed an economic ad iso o he go e nmen in 1957 (chai man o
he Commission o pe spec i e planning). Bu in eali y, I was old, no one had e e con-
sul ed him o any hing. He was an in e na ional celeb i y, and hey used his name as a
showpiece. They jus ga e him a ca wi h a d i e o a while. As a ma e o ac , when he
a i ed in Poland, Kalecki did no ha e a pa icula expe ise in he a ea o planning. His
main a ea o esea ch had been economic cycle and income de e mina ion in capi alis
economies.
Did he ques ion abou ma ke socialism a ise om he ac ha his was hen conside ed a
c edible al e na i e o economic planning in Polish in ellec ual ci cles?
I was a possibili y ha was being conside ed. Włodzimie z B us (1961), o example, had
ecen ly w i en his book Ogólne p oblemy unkcjonowania gospoda ki socjalis ycznej [The
gene al p oblems o he unc ioning o he socialis economy], whe e he in oduced he idea
o a ‘simula ed’ma ke . I was a e o mis app oach. The e was also some in e es in
wha was going on in capi alis coun ies, in he possibili y o eaching ull employmen
h ough he managemen o agg ega e demand. A e all, hese we e he heydays o
Keynesianism in he Wes .
Did you ha e he oppo uni y o collabo a e wi h o he economis s du ing you ime in Poland?
Yes, and I was eally lucky. In I aly I had s udied a he Liceo Classico (Classical High
School) –whe e we s udied a lo o La in and ancien G eek, and e y li le ma h.
Then I g adua ed in law and, again, I did no s udy ma h. So, my ma hema ical back-
g ound was poo . When I s a ed o be in e es ed in economics, I ook hold o a couple
o books o ma hema ics o economis s, in o de o lea n, in pa icula , he ules o di -
e en ial calculus. Ye , my unde s anding o he opic was a he shallow: ma hema ics
books o economis s gi e you he ules o calculus bu no a eal unde s anding.
When I e u ned o I aly, I ook se e al cou ses a he Ma hema ics Facul y o he Uni-
e si y o Pisa.
Bu , as I said, back hen, in Poland, my ma hema ical backg ound was e y limi ed.
I was o una e, howe e , o mee a young physicis , S anisław (S aszek) Gomułka, who
was e y in e es ed in economic and social issues. He had been a membe o he you h
o ganiza ion o he Communis Pa y, o a he he Polish Uni ied Wo ke s’Pa y (Polska
Zjednoczona Pa ia Robo nicza, PZPR, as i was called in Poland). Bu he was someone
who liked o hink o himsel . And, in ac , he had joined he g oup o Jacek Ku oń
and Ka ol Modzelewski, he au ho s o he ‘Open Le e o he Pa y’o 1964, ano he
e y amous documen o ha pe iod.
S aszek was e y in e es ed in lea ning abou wha was going on in he wo ld o eco-
nomics. Ou collabo a ion was based on ou complemen a i y: I had access o Wes e n
economic li e a u e, and he knew ma hema ics.
Ou i s a icle was en i led ‘Technical P og ess and Long-Run G ow h’and highligh ed
he consequences o long- un g ow h o he speci ic cha ac e is ics o echnical p og ess.
We ini ially sen i o he Ekonomis a, which was he main jou nal o Polish economis s.
Un o una ely, S aszek happened o be in he w ong place a he w ong ime, because
when hey a es ed Ku ońand Modzelewski as a esul o he s uden io s in Ma ch
1968, he was he e. He spen h ee mon hs in jail. A ha poin he possibili y o publishing
in he Ekonomis a seemed o us o be p ecluded. When S aszek go ou o p ison he sen ou
4 Eu opean Jou nal o Economics and Economic Policies: In e en ion, Vol. 21 No. 1
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a icle o he Ekonomika i Ma ema icheskie Me ody, he jou nal o he Cen al Economic
Ma hema ical Ins i u e o he So ie Academy o Sciences in Moscow. The schola s mana-
ging he jou nal e iden ly did no know o ca ed li le abou Ku ońand Modzelewski and
he ecen occu ences. They sho ened and edac ed he pape , which was published in
wha was conside ed a he ime a a he p es igious jou nal (Chilosi/Gomulka 1969a).
La e , e en he Ekonomis a accep ed o publish ou pape in he o iginal, mo e di use e -
sion (Chilosi/Gomulka 1969b).
We kep wo king on he opic o some ime. An ex ended e sion o ou main pape
was published in I alian and English in an I alian jou nal (Ri is a di Poli ica Economica)
(Chilosi/Gomulka 1969c) and hen we had a pape on some ela ed subjec published
in he Jou nal o Economic Theo y (Chilosi/Gomulka 1974). Then ou collabo a ion
s opped. A e a b ie s in a he Uni e si y o Aa hus, S aszek mo ed o he London
School o Economics.
I wen back o I aly on a esea ch ellowship, and e en ually o he o me Belgian
Congo, i s as a lec u e and hen as an Associa e P o esso o Economics a he Uni e si é
O icielle du Congo in Lubumbashi (happily enough F ench was my i s o eign lan-
guage). Then, in 1972 I e u ned o Pisa as a lec u e in Economic De elopmen . Bu
we kep in ouch. Thanks o his endo semen I was la e accep ed as an Associa e Senio
Membe a S . An ony’s College, Ox o d, whe e I was able o econnec , among o he s,
wi h my o me eache a he diploma cou se in Economic Planning, and a pa icipan in
Kalecki’s g ow h semina ,Włodzimie z B us.
You men ion ha Gomułka was no an economis by aining. Wha did he aining o econ-
omis s in a socialis coun y consis o ? Wha kind o sou ces did you ha e access o?
My expe ience as a s uden in Poland was a ending he cou se on Economic Planning, as
al eady men ioned. The opics included how he planning p ocess was o ganized, and
g ow h and de elopmen heo y. Among he eache s, apa om B us, who augh plan-
ning, I s ill emembe Ignacy Sachs, who augh economic de elopmen . La e he wen o
he Ecole P a ique des Hau es E udes in Pa is.
The in e es ing hing abou Poland was ha in he lib a y o he Cen al School o Plan-
ning and S a is ics he e was all he wo ld li e a u e on economics. You could ind all he
in e na ional jou nals o he day. All he books. The e was no censo ship on wha one
could ead. Whe eas in 1966, oge he wi h a g oup o s uden s and eache s om he
School o Planning, I wen om Wa saw on a ield ip o he School o Planning in P ague,
Czechoslo akia. And he e I was old ha o eign li e a u e was no no mally accessible.
Wha di e ence was he e be ween he ‘ heo e ical’planning you s udied a he uni e si y and
he p ac ical one ca ied ou by socialis ins i u ions?
In he lec u es on planning a he diploma cou se in Economic Planning, hey augh us
ha he goal o he plan was o p oduce a documen wi h some in e nal consis ency, wi h-
ou any pa icula ambi ion o ‘op imiza ion’. All ha heo e ical deba e on how i was
possible o each an op imiza ion o he plan simila o ha o he ma ke in e ms o Pa -
e o op imali y did no ha e much p ac ical ele ance in eali y. Oska Lange’s model, o
example, had also been much discussed in Wes e n economic li e a u e. S a ing om
hose wo amous a icles (‘On he economic heo y o socialism’, Pa One and Pa
Two), Lange (1936, 1937) had ied o demons a e ha he planne s could use a p ocess
o ial and e o , o successi e co ec ions and i e a ions, o achie e an op imal alloca ion
o esou ces.
In e iew wi h Albe o Chilosi 5
© 2024 The Au ho Jou nal compila ion © 2024 Edwa d Elga Publishing L d
In he conc e e p ac ice o planning, all o his did no exis . The bes you could ge
was a documen . Wi hou op imal alloca ions, wi hou a - eaching i e a ions. No o e all
i e a ions could be ca ied ou because he e was no ime. The bes you could ge was o
ind a ce ain logical co espondence be ween he commi men s assigned o he a ious
ac o s in he p oduc ion p ocess. In p ac ice, hey ied o ma ch ou pu s and inpu s in
he chain o e ical in eg a ion o p oduc ion. Bu i was a e y chao ic p ocess, gi en
ha i also had o inco po a e he p io i ies decided a he poli ical le el. Basically,
hese we e dynamics no oo dissimila om hose ha domina e he app o al o public
budge s e en in mode n capi alis economies: one hing is he economic models, ano he
hing is he p essu es and in e e ence o he poli ical sphe e which conc e ely decides he
use o esou ces.
In he socialis planning o he ime, he p e ious yea was aken as a s a ing poin .
And hen hey ied o make adjus men s in line wi h he policies o he momen . Bu ,
in ac , his poli ical jux aposi ion also p e en ed he documen om ha ing an e ec i e,
igo ous echnical cohe ence, wi h he esul ha he objec i es o he plans we e almos
ne e achie ed. Hence Kalecki’s c i icism agains ‘ olun a ism’. A he uni e si y, we s u-
died planning as an exe cise ha should ha e been a leas o mally cohe en . I emembe
he lessons o B us, who had a e y ealis ic app oach om his poin o iew. Lange’s
models we e no eally aken in o conside a ion. The ‘ eal’ heo y o planning was simple
han hose models. The eal ‘p ac ice’o planning was –I would say –down o ea h.
You compa ed he plan-making p ocess o he nego ia ions o he public budge in mode n
capi alis economies. In he la e case, hough, poli icians a e exposed o p essu e om a a ie y
o in e es g oups –g oups o which poli icians mus espond wi hin a ela ionship o demo-
c a ic ep esen a ion. In a socialis egime like Poland’s, wha p e en ed poli icians om s ick-
ing o a echnical cohe en plan?
Fi s o all, ideology, epi omized by S alin’s amouswo ds:‘The e a e no o esses he
Bolshe iks canno s o m’. The plan was usually oo op imis ic and p ac ically in easible.
To do he con a y, ha is o say, no o be ambi ious enough, could be seen as some o m
o de ea ism. Howe e , e en wi hou he dis o ions c ea ed by in easible goals, some basic
issues a ec ing he ‘logic’o planning would no be sol ed anyway.
The i s p oblem is ha he a ge s o he plan we e basically olumes o p oduc ion,
no he le el o p o i . This c ea ed wo ypes o ine iciency. The single p oduc ion uni s
had no in e es in e icien ly using he esou ces a ailable o hem since hei cos was no
basically accoun ed o , as he a ge was he p oduc ion, independen ly o he oppo u-
ni y cos o he esou ces made a ailable. The e o e, p oduce s we e in e es ed in g abbing
as much p oduc i e asse s as possible, independen o p esen needs and o hei p oduc-
i i y in al e na i e uses elsewhe e. Tha is why p oduce uni s ended o be ela i ely o e -
supplied in he ‘p io i y a eas’(such as hea y indus y and mili a y p ocu emen ) and
ela i ely unde -supplied elsewhe e.
Mo eo e , he e was he issue o he quali y and composi ion o he p oduc . How
would one measu e he quan i y and quali y o wha would be p oduced acco ding o
he plan? To epea a s anda d a gumen , i he p oduc ion o nails we e o be measu ed
acco ding o weigh , he bes way o ul il he plan –in heo y –was he p oduc ion o a
single big nail. O cou se, he asso men could be imp o ed by conside ing he alue o
he nails p oduced by assigning a p ice o he di e en ypes o nails and imposing some
kind o asso men , howe e measu ed. Bu how o se he p ices, and wha abou he
quali y? The ac ha quali y su e ed because he e was no way in which consume s
could ansmi hei e alua ion o he commodi ies pu chased o he supplie s was a
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cons an ea u e o socialis planned economies. In he 1980s, Go bache ied o imp o e
he quali y o p oduc ion in he USSR h ough an agency (Gosp iyemka, S a e Accep ance)
ha was g an ed he igh o e use he dis ibu ion o he goods o low quali y. The
unwan ed consequence was a d ama ic inc ease in sca ci y.
Ha e you managed o ge a i s -hand expe ience o he p oblems a ec ing he p oduc ion p o-
cess ha ollowed he plan?
I emembe once hey ook us o isi a ac o y oge he wi h some Ame ican g adua es. The
Ame icans no iced ha many machines we e le idle. The explana ion was ha he p oduc-
ion objec i es decided by he plan we e based on a measu e o p oduc ion capaci y based on
o me p oduc ion. The e o e, i was no con enien o hem o p oduce a ull capaci y in
he pe iod in which hese measu es we e aken. I was be e o a i icially educe p oduc ion
in o de o educe he demands ha would be included in he plan. Then, when he ime
would come o e i y he achie emen o he objec i es p e iously se by he plan, hey
would be wo king a ull capaci y. And ha was because bonuses and p oduc ion ewa ds
depended on achie ing hose goals. These a e dynamics ha can be well s udied h ough
game heo y. And e en in his case we can ind a so o equi alen in mode n capi alis
economies: in socialism he p oduce s ied o hide hei eal p oduc i e capaci ies om
he planne in o de no o be gi en oo un easonable p oduc ion objec i es and o be
able o ecei e hei bonuses. In capi alism he p oduce s y o hide hei eal abili y o
ea n om he public au ho i y in o de o pay less axes.
I was exac ly because o hese p oblems ha al e na i es o pu e cen al planning we e consid-
e ed in se e al socialis coun ies a he ime, o ins ance, ma ke socialism. Wha is you opi-
nion o he idea o ma ke socialism?
In a socialis economy all en e p ises mus be public. And his, o cou se, also applies o a
ma ke socialis economy. So, he idea o ma ke socialism is based on a p ohibi ion:
mu ually bene icial con ac s be ween po en ial en ep eneu s who would like o hi e
wo ke s, and wo ke s who would like o be hi ed, a e in ac p ohibi ed. Le ’s akea
hypo he ical example: I am a echnician wi h he po en ial o aking ad an age o inno a-
ions and a good business idea. I could en some means o p oduc ion and hi e wo ke s o
wo k o me and ha e he sa is ac ion and he gain o unning my own i m. P ospec i e
employees migh ha e e e y in e es in accep ing my o e , because a he han being
poo ly paid, e en i aking ad an age o some slack, hey could p e e o wo k mo e in en-
si ely, bu ha ing be e wages, i my i m will be mo e p oduc i e han al e na i e s a e
en e p ises. The economy as a whole could ha e an ad an age. Because o g ea e eco-
nomic and possibly echnical p og ess, mo e could be p oduced and dis ibu ed. In ma ke
socialism, all his, in heo y, would no be allowed. Bu once you ge pas he idea o he
plan and emb ace he idea o he ma ke as an ins umen o coo dina ion, i is di icul o
main ain he abo e p ohibi ion. Wi h wha jus i ica ion do you p ohibi some hing ha
seems o bene i all pa ies in ol ed? I is an inhe en ly uns able model. And, in ac , in he
coun ies ha ha e gone ha ou e, he sha e o he p i a e sec o has g adually expanded.
Look a wha has happened in China and in Vie nam.
So, you don’ conside he Chinese model o be ‘ma ke socialism’?
P esen ly i is ce ainly a kind o a ma ke economy. The Chinese model is a complex
model and changing in ime. I is based on empi ical expe imen s which, a e he end
o he disas ous Maois pe iod, began a i s e en ou side legali y. When he Chinese
leade ship ealized ha some hing was wo king, ha is when he expe imen u ned
In e iew wi h Albe o Chilosi 7
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in o ins i u ional inno a ion, i was in oduced i s locally, hen na ionally, on he basis o
he p inciple ha ‘i doesn’ ma e whe he a ca is black o whi e, as long as i ca ches
mice’. The esul is a hyb id s a e–p i a e ma ke economy ha is di icul o p edic in
wha di ec ion i migh e ol e. La ely he Chinese leade ship seems o wan o back ack
and keep he p i a e side o he economy unde s ic e con ol.
His o ically, he econcilia ion o socialism and he ma ke has also been in oked o p omo e a
democ a ic e olu ion o poli ical ins i u ions in socialis coun ies. Many see he planned econ-
omy as incompa ible wi h libe al democ acy. We could hink, o example, o Hayek’s e lec-
ions on his. In you opinion, a e socialis planning and democ acy compa ible?
In a comple ely heo e ical line, one could ha e a sys em ha gua an ees o indi iduals all
he basic human igh s ( he eedoms o exp ession, p ess, o ganiza ion, e c.) while he
sphe e o economic o ganiza ion would be ese ed as he exclusi e domain o he
s a e. In such a sys em, he poli ical leade ship could be eely elec ed by he ci izens
and he e o e he planne s hemsel es would be accoun able o he so e eign people.
This would be he ins i u ional amewo k wi hin which ‘democ a ic planning’could
ake place. F om his heo e ical poin o iew, i may seem like he e is no incompa ibili y
in p inciple be ween socialis planning and democ acy.
In eali y, howe e , hings a e mo e complex. When poli ical powe also wields eco-
nomic powe , i is eally di icul o go agains his powe . In a sys em in which all sou ces
o income a e de i ed om he s a e, he isk ha he eedom o indi idual ci izens would
depend on he bene olence o hose in go e nmen is o e whelming. Mo eo e , would i
be compa ible wi h he s a e monopoly o economic o ganiza ion, he eedom o issuing,
say, a newspape o some o he o m o cul u al and in o ma ional p oduc ion (such as a
adio o a TV s a ion o books publishing)? How would he co esponding esou ces be
alloca ed in he amewo k o he plan?
In a genuinely democ a ic egime, mo eo e , ci izens migh well decide ha hey do
no wan a planned economy and hey wan o a he ha e eedom o economic ini ia i e.
Then he p oblem would be how o main ain he sys em. The e could be some cons i u-
ional p o ision gua an eeing he pe sis ence o he sys em. Bu i would be di icul o
main ain i agains he will o he majo i y o he people.
The e we e no such p oblems in socialis Poland?
Indeed. I emembe once, e u ning o Wa saw om ab oad, I was s uck by seeing so
many elec ion pos e s on he walls. ‘Vo e o he Na ional Uni y F on ’, heysaid.
Then I asked: bu wha o he lis s a e in he ace? ‘None’, I was answe ed.
I also wen o see how he elec ions we e being held. They we e held exac ly as in he
Wes , bu wi h a c ucial e e sal. In he Wes he o e was sec e , and he ballo was pub-
lic. In Poland he o e was public, and he ballo was sec e . Then, a e he coun ing was
done unde high sec ecy, comple ely unbelie able esul s came ou –like he pa y sec e-
a y had been elec ed wi h 99 pe cen o he o e.
Ha ing said ha , i should be added ha in Poland he egime was no e y igh .
Compa ed o o he coun ies ollowing eal socialism, i was in ac a ela i ely ‘libe al’
egime. My iancée’s a he was an enginee wo king independen ly as a plumbe . A e
hewa he amilyhadowneda h i ing u ni u e shop ha was o cibly aken o e
wi h no indemni ica ion by he s a e. He old me ha a e e y elec ion he would go o
he polling s a ion, ake he ballo and ea i up in on o e e yone, asking: ‘whe e
should I h ow his away?’No one e e said any hing o him. I was no like in Czecho-
slo akia o Eas Ge many, whe e hese hings we e aken much mo e se iously. In Poland
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