The poli ics o he makeshi ci y:
ma e iali y, symbolic bounda ies, and social ela ions
in squa e se lemen s in La in Ame ica1
In e iew wi h Ma ía José Ál a ez Ri adulla,
Uni e sidad de los Andes, Colombia
Pe ašá
Pe Vašá (PV): Ma ia, i s o all, hank you o mee ing wi h me. Fo ou in e iew, Iha e
p epa ed ques ions spanning om in o mal u banism o building echniques o poli ics.
Some o hese ques ions a e mo e ela ed o esea ch, while some a e mo e abou u ban de-
elopmen . Howe e , le ’s s a wi h you beginnings. Iha e disco e ed ha you s a ed o
s udy in o mal u banism in Mon e ideo in he 90s, 1997 o be exac , which is ap e y long
ime ago. So, how did i all begin? Why did you s a s udying in o mal u banism?
Ma ía José Ál a ez Ri adulla (MJAR): Iwas s udying Social Wo k a he ime, and
we had o conduc ieldwo k in ag oup o squa e se lemen s ha had jus been
o med and which we e jus beginning o eme ge. We s a ed in h ee neighbo hoods.
Iwas aking classes bo h in Social wo k and Sociology a he ime and couldn’ make
up my mind be ween he wo. Iliked Social Wo k mo e because we did much mo e
ieldwo k. So Is a ed going o hese neighbo hoods and i imp essed me ha people
said, “Oh, we can call he Mayo .” They also had jo ings in no ebooks om neighbo -
hood associa ions’ mee ings, whe e hey had e e yone’s cell phone lis ed, e en poli i-
cians’, and Iwonde ed how i was possible ha hey had di ec con ac o poli icians.
I su p ised me a he ime and hen I ealized how impo an i is. Du ing ha ield-
wo k, he i s hing we did was map he neighbo hood his o y o hese h ee di -
e en squa e se lemen s. One was mo e planned, mo e on he le o he poli ical
spec um o ganized by ag oup o young ana chis s and o he poli ically engaged in-
di iduals. The o he wo had ies o he o he wo poli ical pa ies in U uguay. Idid my
unde g adua e hesis on hese se lemen s, bu Iwas mo e ocused on hei po e y,
no on hei poli ics. Then Imo ed o Pi sbu gh o my PhD and nobody in Sociology
a he ime was wo king on La in Ame ica o u ban issues.
PV: Really? Tha su p ises me…
MJAR: Bu he e was an amazing poli ical sociologis , John Ma ko , who became my
ad iso . Wi h John and eading alo abou social mo emen s, Is a ed o examine
1 The e m makeshi ci y is bo owed om Alexande Vasu edan (2015, p. 347) o whom i
“places pa icula emphasis on he dense ma ix o p ac ices ha a e cen al o how squa-
ed spaces and communi ies a e pieced oge he , secu ed and li ed.”
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102 STUDIA ETHNOLOGICA PRAGENSIA 1/2020
mo e hese con ac s be ween poli icians and squa e s and hei ela ionships wi h
o ms o collec i e ac ion in squa e se lemen s.2
PV: And hese a e also he issues you deal wi h in you ecen ly published book, Squa e s
and he Poli ics o Ma ginali y in U uguay.3 Basically, i you could ame in a ew sen ences
wha changed since hen because Iknow— and Iam skipping a ound ali le bi now— in
you book you o e amul ilaye ed depic ion o neighbo hood change, desc ibing how some
kids go in o d ugs, guns, e ce e a. So basically, wha has changed since he ime when you
ini ially s a ed you esea ch?
MJAR: Deindus ializa ion had ape asi e impac on he younge gene a ions li ing
in squa e se lemen s and o he poo a eas.
PV: Would you know he amoun o o eign di ec in es men (FDI) coming in o he coun y
and possibly he amoun o sec o money? I is in e es ing because, ecen ly, Is udied he na-
u e and ex en o land g abbing in La in Ame ica and i seems ha i is ahuge and complex
p oblem nowadays, especially in B azil and U uguay.
MJAR: Iam no an expe bu he e has been alo o o eign in es men in u al and
u ban land since he 1980s and 90s when he economy opened up. Agood example is
Pun a del Es e, he luxu y seaside eso in which basically ew U uguayans can ac u-
ally spend hei aca ions. The e is e en aT ump Towe being buil . The e is an a -
icle by Daniel Ren ew,4 an an h opologis , on his and he a gues ha Pun a del Es e
is like aga ed own. I is also aghos own du ing he win e . Ru al land, in u n, is
oday much mo e concen a ed and owned by o eigne s who in es in U uguay and
ha e soy ields, ees o cellulose and o he o ms o ag oindus ies, e c.
PV: So, wha changed in neighbo hoods since democ a iza ion and economic globaliza ion?
MJAR: The mos impo an change has been he mush ooming o squa e se le-
men s. The ci y did no expe ience popula ion g ow h, which is he main cause o
squa e se lemen o ma ion elsewhe e. U uguay is 90% u ban since he 1960s and
mos o i s u ban popula ion concen a es in Mon e ideo, he capi al ci y. Wi h an
ea ly demog aphic ansi ion, he a e age e ili y a e is 1.6 child en pe woman, bu
o cou se his a ies ac oss socioeconomic le els and a eas. So, wi hou popula ion
g ow h, you ha e a ise o squa e se lemen s in he ci y. I s inhabi an s used o li e
in he o mal ci y. They we e expelled om he ci y because hey could no pay en ,
hey couldn’ suppo hei amilies, and hey had no c edi o buy anew house in
he ci y. The peak in he numbe o new squa e se lemen s was in he la e 80s and
90s, bu he e a e also some old ones in he ci y. The i s one I ound was om 1947.
2 John Ma ko is apoli ical sociologis (h p://www.sociology.pi .edu/pe son/john-ma -
ko -phd). He w i es compa a i ely abou he ole o social mo emen s and he his o y o
e olu ions and democ acy.
3 Ál a ez–Ri adulla, M.J. 2017. Squa e s and he poli ics o ma ginali y in U uguay. New Yo k:
Palg a e Macmillan.
4 Ren ew, D. 2004. Pun a del es e as global ci y? Compe ing isions o U uguayan na ion-
hood in ageog aphy o exclusion. Ci y & Socie y, 16(2): 11–33.
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PETR AŠáT 103
While he olde ones a e mo e by acc e ion, he new ones end o be mo e planned.
Some o hei leade s had expe iences in o mal wo k, unions, poli ical pa ies, he
coope a i e housing mo emen and hey ans e ed ha o ganiza ional knowledge
o u ban squa ing. The easons behind he peak a e economical and also poli ical,
gi en ha he elec o al compe i ion o he o es o he u ban poo inc eased in he
ci y a ound ha ime. Ido no see he same le el o o ganiza ion now. On he con-
a y wha Isee oday is lack o oppo uni ies, especially o he you h g owing up in
hose squa e se lemen s. The e a e no quali y jobs and he e a e ew educa ional
oppo uni ies since s uden s a e expelled om seconda y educa ion. The d ug deal-
ing ma ke is emp ing.
PV: Mike Da is in his amous book, Plane o Slums (2006), desc ibes slums as a esul o he
ans o ma ion o he global economy associa ed wi h he neolibe al e o ms ha ook place
ac oss he globe a he u n o he 80s and 90s. Acco ding o Da is, hese changes pola ized
socie ies and p oduced social inequali ies. Slums, as he ex eme ma e ializa ion o social
inequali ies, a e acco ding o hese e ms a e lec ion o economic inequali ies. In you book,
you we e c i ical o his na a i e. Howe e , isn’ wha you jus said ac ually an indica o
ha in he 90s neolibe alism had ahuge impac on especially hese ypes o neighbo hoods?
MJAR: Yes, his is pa ially ue. F agmen a ion is inc easing. Social in eg a ion is
dec easing. Ye , i is also ue ha he e has been asigni ican inc ease in he num-
be o people in he middle-income b acke o he las i een yea s, a leas un il he
cu en ecessi e and pandemic si ua ion. Al hough I ind Mike Da is’ book in e es -
ing ood o hough , I hink i doesn’ apply comple ely o wha happened in La in
Ame ica in ecen yea s. Fo example, Iwould say ha THE u ban phenomenon in
La in Ame ica in ecen yea s has no been he ise in squa e se lemen s ( ha in
gene al happened be o e) bu he ise in p i a ized social housing.5 Simply pu , Iam
no con inced by Da is’ na a i e o pola iza ion as alid o all places.
PV: Isee. Speaking o class, you ha e w i en an in e es ing pape compa ing classes in U u-
guay and Colombia. Could you elabo a e ali le mo e on he di e ences? Iha e no iced ha
o be pa o he middle class in Colombia educa ion is e y impo an , speci ically ge ing
an educa ion om p i a e uni e si ies.
MJAR: And p i a e schools as well. Well, U uguay is much mo e egali a ian han Co-
lombia. Colombia cu en ly is one o he mos unequal coun ies in he wo ld. So, o
unde s and how his plays ou o e e yday people, he i s di e ence is ha in U u-
guay you ha e alanguage o class— when you ask abou he school you wen o o he
neighbo hood in which you li e, people say “amiddle class one”, wi hou being asked
abou i . In Colombia, people a oid alking abou class; hey speak abou s a a, no
abou classes. I is e y in e es ing because he s a a language is ap oduc o public
5 The e m “social housing” in La in Ame ica has asligh ly di e en meaning han in he
Eu o-Ame ican con ex . Usually, social housing is a ype o housing ha is subsidized by
go e nmen s; howe e , in La in Ame ica, i is p ima ily o pu chase as opposed o li ing
in i me ely as a enan . As a esul , he eme gen middle classes li e in social housing be-
cause hey a e he ones who ha e enough money o pay o i .
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104 STUDIA ETHNOLOGICA PRAGENSIA 1/2020
policy. S a a began as pa o ap og essi e policy measu e o classi y ci ies in o six
socioeconomic g oups, so ha people in s a a ou , i e, and six would pay mo e o
public se ices subsidizing he o he s a a. Bu people now say, o example, “Ili e
in s a a wo, bu Iam om s a a h ee,” and so hey use i as alanguage o class. I
you ask hem “Wha class do you hink you belong o?”, people ell you “well s a a
wo o h ee.” I is e y in e es ing how apolicy became pa o people’s e e yday
language and hough s.
PV: Ano he one o you pape s was abou inequali ies ha a e being played ou a an eli e
uni e si y.6 You desc ibed e y nicely in he in oduc o y igne e one gi l, om he lowe
classes o s a a, ha go in o his eli e uni e si y and who wen o he classma es’ pa ies,
whe e she no iced a ious symbolic ma ke s o he classma es om he uppe classes; o ex-
ample, people om he no h o he ci y (uppe classes) use mo e amilia names o always
ha e nice, clean hai . Can you elabo a e on his mo e? F om my own expe ience in Colom-
bia, Icould lis se e al a ibu es h ough which Iam ypically able o ecognize he di e en
classes. So, could you men ion mo e abou his a gumen on symbolic bounda ies?
MJAR: As you know Iha e wo ked alo on u ban sociology, including esiden ial seg-
ega ion. We know ha seg ega ion is bad o people because o he neighbo hood
e ec s Idesc ibed be o e o he kids g owing up in squa e se lemen s in Mon-
e ideo. Ye , he e is alo we s ill don’ know abou he mechanisms ha make he
neighbo hood ma e . Why and in wha condi ions social mixing wo ks is s ill an
empi ical ques ion. We don’ know wha he e ec s a e o , say, mo ing apoo pe son
om apoo neighbo hood o amixed neighbo hood. I seems o ha e wo ked in di -
e en ci ies, acco ding o he Mo ing o Oppo uni y p ojec o ins ance, bu we know
li le abou his mixing and how i a ec s social in e ac ions. Simply placing apoo
pe son in aneighbo hood ha is be e o , does no mean ha his pe son will ha e
iends o e en alk o people ha a e be e o . This ellowship p og am ha Iam
s udying, Se Pilo Paga, opened he doo o he bes uni e si ies in he coun y o
poo s uden s, i hey excelled a hei high school lea ing s a e exam. Fo his, hey
had o be ou s anding, gi en ha esul s in ha exam a e s ongly co ela ed o social
class e lec ing deep educa ional inequali ies. Many en e ed eli e p i a e uni e si-
ies, like he one in my s udy. Hence, he p og am is ana u al expe imen o obse e
social in e ac ions ac oss classes in amixed con ex . The ques ions a e simila o he
u ban ones, bu in an educa ional a he han aneighbo hood con ex . The p og am
ga e condonable loans o s uden s o ou consecu i e yea s.
PV: Fou yea s. And i is also widely c i icized, is ha igh ?
MJAR: I has aced an immense amoun o c i icism. In such an unequal coun y as
Colombia, public uni e si ies and ci izens c i icized ha mos o his public money
was ending in p i a e ins i u ions. The p og am is o e now, in pa o his c i icism
and in pa o alack o unding.
6 Ál a ez-Ri adulla, M.J. 2019. ¿”Los becados con los becados y los icos con los icos”? In-
e acciones en e clases sociales dis in as en una uni e sidad de eli e. Desaca os59: 50–67.
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PETR AŠáT 105
PV: So, how does he p og am ac ually wo k? Because Iha e me some people om public
uni e si ies and hey we e kind o skep ical abou he p og am, jus as you a some poin s in
you a icle imply ce ain skep icism.
MJAR: Well, i depends on wha aspec s o he p og am you look a and wha you wan
o ind. I you ask me abou he sys em o highe educa ion, his is jus ali le pa , i
is no eally apolicy bu ap og am. I Iwas aminis e o educa ion, Iwould de o e
money o public educa ion. Is udied a apublic uni e si y and Ibelie e ha i gua -
an ees much mo e in eg a ion han p i a e uni e si ies. Ye , he majo i y o hese
kids a e no able o en e public uni e si ies o di e en easons. To en e he bes
public uni e si y, o ins ance, i is no me ely enough o pass you seconda y edu-
ca ion exam wi h an excellen sco e, bu you also ha e o pass ano he exam, which
is aba ie o many people because you ha e o pay o i and pass i . I is no alo
o money o someone om he middle class, bu i de ini ely is o someone who is
poo . You ha e o come o Bogo a o ake he exam and hen, i you ge in, you ha e
o ha e money o be able o mo e o Bogo a, ega dless o he ac ha you ui ion is
co e ed o e y low. You s ill ha e o be able o a o d li e in he ci y, so mos o hese
kids do no end up aking pa in (a leas high quali y) highe public educa ion. So,
public educa ion he e also has ba ie s and we keep losing alen , losing human capi-
al because agood pa o hese kids a e no going o hese schools ei he . So, Iwould
de o e money o public educa ion bu would c ea e special p og ams o include hese
s uden s in public educa ion. Iam no an educa ion expe bu pe haps p i a e uni-
e si ies can also help in inc easing access o high quali y educa ion. Wha Isee o-
day in Colombia is amul i ude o p i a e low quali y ins i u ions ull o s uden s
ha canno a o d o he p i a e uni e si ies o en e public ones. This has o change.
Besides, as Isaid be o e, he e a e huge inequali ies o o igin by amily backg ound,
egion and p ima y and seconda y educa ion. Those a e no co e ed by he p og am
bu hey need o be add essed as well. .
So, in sho , i depends on wha aspec s o he issue you look a . I you look a his
p og am as apa o he educa ional sys em, i is jus asmall pa . I you look a i
om he pe spec i e o he s uden s, hen you can see how i can change hei li es
comple ely. Imean you a e gi ing hem aunique oppo uni y o uly h i e in hei
s udies. I is jus now ha he i s coho o s uden s is g adua ing. I ’s uly ascina -
ing. We need o s udy how hey do in hei adul li e. This does no mean ha social
mobili y is easy. Iam also wo king on he hidden inju ies o class as well as on he
hidden ba ie s o upwa d social mobili y.
PV: To come back o in o mal u banism, he e is a end in La in Ame ica, bu also o he
coun ies as well, ha slums, in asiones, a e ge ing mo e public a en ion and a e acing
an in lux o ou ism and a e being “beau i ied.” We can see many echnological bu also a -
is ic and design in e en ions in hese places. In Eu ope and he USA, u ban po e y was
he subjec o social wel a e in he pas . Howe e , since he 90s, ci ies in he USA ha e been
acing wel a e cu s. Eu ope is he same s o y. Ido no hink he same holds ue o Colombia
o La in Ame ica. Howe e , many o hese in e en ions oday a e no unded by he s a e
bu a he by he p i a e sec o . So, wha do you hink abou his dis inc ion— in e ening
h ough an u ban-ma e ial nexus and h ough social wel a e ools? A e we wi nessing anew
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106 STUDIA ETHNOLOGICA PRAGENSIA 1/2020
policy on how o ackle u ban po e y? I so, how does an in e en ion ha is “design-based”
and ou is -o ien ed ac ually wo k?
MJAR: Well, he e is ce ainly some hing new o his “beau i ica ion” end sp ead-
ing in Rio, Medellín, and many o he ci ies. The model is a elling. The e is ag ea
book called Tou ing Po e y in which he B azilian schola Bianca F ei e-Medei os
compa es Rio and Johannesbu g.7 The e is de ini ely some hing o i . Be o e, u ban
au ho i ies wan ed o e ase po e y om ci ies a he han doing some hing o ad-
d ess i o add ess i bu eloca e i making i in isible. I seems ou ism has been
ans o ming his, ans o ming u ban po e y in o acul u al hing ha you can sell,
al hough his can be in e p e ed in many ways. When Iwen o Soacha wi h Diana
Boca ejo o do ieldwo k, on he one hand people we e like “we do wan o ha e aca-
ble ca he e,” ye , on he o he hand, he e we e so many o he u gen hings o do,
o example, hey did no ha e po able wa e in he houses.8 They hough i someone
b ough acable ca in, i would make hem isible. Many people li ing in hese se -
lemen s a e in isible and igno ed. Based on his, he expec a ion o ha ing ou is s
o people coming in was some hing hey ecognized as posi i e. In hei minds, his
was he expe ience o Medellín.
These in e en ions ha e many di e en eadings and a e ull o con adic ions.
In Rio and in Medellín, hese in e en ions we e connec ed o paci ica ion, wi h s a e
iolence and human igh s iola ions.
Now, Idon’ see hese in e en ions as asubs i u e o he wel a e s a e. In Co-
lombia, I hink hey a e no subs i u ing any hing because he wel a e s a e o he
excluded popula ions li ing in he in e ened comunas o Medellín was ne e s ong
o begin wi h. I is simply s a e in e en ion in he a ea and, o cou se, people wel-
come i because i is he s a e coming in, making hem isible. In coun ies ha ha e
s onge wel a e p og ams, like U uguay o ins ance, hese in e en ions a e mo e
complemen a y o wel a e, bu he e a e an asies ha hese u ban policies will make
mi acles happen. Howe e , by me ely building apa k in aneighbo hood ha lacks
employmen oppo uni ies and o he social policies, mi acles will no simply happen.
Space is no enough.
PV: Some imes, as a o eigne om a o ally di e en cul u al backg ound, i is di icul o
me o ell when aplace is sa e o no . Fo example, Iwas a a amous ma ke close o Ma-
ca ena once. The neighbo hood seemed ine, bu Iwas old no o walk om he main oad be-
cause i is supposed o be e en mo e dange ous han common “no go” a eas in he ci y. Could
you commen on his isual aspec o neighbo hoods?
MJAR: When you asked wha changed in he neighbo hoods Is udied, Idid no men-
ion one c ucial aspec and ha is d ugs. D ug dealing in hese squa e neighbo -
hoods in Mon e ideo we e no e iden when Is a ed, ye now i is e y common and
i has changed e e y hing in he neighbo hood. I means, when isi ing hese neigh-
7 F ei e-Medei os, Bianca. 2013. Tou ing Po e y. London & New Yo k: Rou ledge.
8 Ál a éz-Ri adulla, Ma ía José, & Boca ejo, Diana. 2014. Beau i ying he slum: cable ca
e ishism in Cazucá, Colombia. In e na ional Jou nal o U ban and Regional Resea ch, 38(6):
2025–2041.
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PETR AŠáT 107
bo hoods, you always ha e o go wi h alocal guide. He e in Colombia, Ialways ell my
s uden s who go o ce ain neighbo hoods o do ieldwo k o call me when hey ge
he e and when hey a e on hei way back. I is necessa y o be cau ious, bu no -
mally he e a e good people who can ake you in. Howe e , i is di icul o ell wha is
sa e, as hese ma ke s a e no isual; a he i is abou symbolic bounda ies and his
was e en he case in 1997, when Is a ed my own esea ch. D ug dealing, o ins ance,
is a e y unique issue, and i you c oss aline, you migh ge you sel in o ouble. So,
yes, he e a e hidden ules which a e no isual; hey a e qui e in e nalized, so you
canno see hem o hei limi s, and you canno see i e en he e [poin ing o aneigh-
bo hood by he uni e si y]. The e was ahuge police ac ion o e he e his mo ning.
They ook away six people, supposedly d ug deale s. They we e selling o s uden s
om Los Andes and Rosa io, acco ding o he news.9 The u ban is o en ag adien ,
and he e is no sha p dis inc ion be ween asa e space and anon-sa e space. Plus, di -
e en people eel sa e in di e en spaces. This is unny. When you ask people in Ca-
zucá, aplace bogo anos ea , wha hey ea , hey ell you hey ea down own.
PV: Speaking o socio-ma e ial dynamics, in you book you dis inguished be ween di e en
ypes o squa ing. One is mo e symme ical and he o he in ol es mo e a ypical cons uc-
ions and disposable ma e ials. Do hey ep esen he same building p ac ice, albei wi h wo
di e en ypes o ma e ials, o a e hey a he wo di e en p ac ices ela ed o di e gen
his o ies and makeshi poli ics?
MJAR: Well, one ype is planned and he o he one occu s by acc e ion. Planned
squa e s a e mo e poli ically ac i e and he design o he neighbo hood is made o
be in eg a ed in o he ci y. Ag oup seizes aplo one day and hey plan he neighbo -
hood, including he s ee s and he blocks. They claim o be pa o he ci y, and hey
wan o be o icial, legal. They wan o ha e land i les and become owne s. They hink
o hemsel es no as poo bu as wo king class and hey wan o be ecognized as
such, so hey c ea e spa ial and social bounda ies wi h people ha li e in he neigh-
bo hoods c ea ed by acc e ion. Acc e ion in he o m o in asions is an ou come o
amilies a i ing o e yea s. These squa e se lemen s end o be inhabi ed by e en
mo e des i u e popula ions. I is simply alas eso ype o housing.
PV: Schola s om ama e ial s udies backg ound, o example Vic o Buchli, ha e been
poin ing ou ha he social o ganiza ion o ma e ial o ms, om small hings in he home
o la ge poli ical-economic ma e iali y, ha e an impac on social ela ions.10 Is he e any
di e ence in social ela ions based on he ma e iali y o squa e se lemen s?
MJAR: Acc e ion-based occupa ions a e less o ganized in e ms o neighbo hood as-
socia ions. Planned land in asions o en ha e neighbo hood associa ions. They we e
also p oude o hei neighbo hood and how much hey had achie ed. This was he
main di e ence I ound be ween he wo di e en ypes. The e was amomen in his-
o y, howe e , in which some acc e ion in asions mobilized ac oss se lemen s, o-
wa ds he end o he U uguayan dic a o ship. In pa icula , a e y p og essi e p ies
9 Uni e sidad del Rosa io.
10 Buchli, Vic o . 2013. An an h opology o a chi ec u e. London: Bloomsbu y.
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108 STUDIA ETHNOLOGICA PRAGENSIA 1/2020
wen o li e in hese e y poo neighbo hoods and he helped build asense o digni y
and collec i eness ha led hem o ahuge mobiliza ion in eac ion o displacemen .
This was he ime o libe a ion heology and Ca holic Chu ch’s g ea in ol emen
wi h he poo . He, and o he p ies s, oge he wi h ac i is s and p o essionals wo k-
ing in NGOs ac ed as b oke s in squa e ’s mobiliza ion o link hem wi h esou ces.
This pa icula p ies con ac ed he poo communi ies wi h ano he chu ch commu-
ni y om a iche neighbo hood and hey dona ed money, so he squa e s could buy
he land and hen build houses. I is no easy o c ea e his kind o o ganiza ion and
each hese goals wi hou ab oke .
PV: In Czechia, we ha e his speci ic cul u e called ku ils í in ol ing anumbe o DIY ac-
i i ies e y impo an o Czech iden i y. Do people li ing in communas ha e some hing like
ha , any pa icula cul u al ac i i ies, such as epai ing homes, making u ni u e, e c.? And
is he e any di e ence in e ms o cons uc ion echniques? Do hey use any expe knowl-
edge o is i mo e DYI-based?
MJAR: This a ies coun y by coun y, bu he e is no pa icula ac i i y in gene al.
Squa e s wo k in wha hey can, o en in he in o mal economy. Many women wo k
as domes ic wo ke s, many men in cons uc ion. Bu he e a e also o mal wo ke s in
low paid occupa ions om policemen o selle s. The e a e also small businesses bo h
in people’s homes and ou side, in he s ee in he neighbo hood o ou side.
Cons uc ion ma e ials a y alo ac oss ci ies bu hey also a y in he same ci y.
In Mon e ideo, while planned in asions end o ha e b ick made houses, acc e ion
in asions end o be made o disposable mo e p eca ious ma e ials. Squa e se le-
men s in gene al a e sel -cons uc ed. In U uguay, i is common ha o he mos di -
icul hings, o ins ance pu ing a oo on, you need an expe bu o en people in he
neighbo hood wo k in cons uc ion. These people know how o build. They no mally
do oo ing on Sundays because you ha e o do i in one day and alo o people coope -
a e on i , so hey do i in his way like an o ganized g oup o sel -help. The owne o en
o e s ood, aba becue o ins ance, o hose ha helped. I is amale hing. Speak-
ing o cul u al ac i i ies, house building is an ongoing p ojec . One yea , you ha e
only one oom, he nex yea you ha e wo, and hen la e you build asecond loo
and g adually he house becomes nice . In some o he houses Iha e isi ed o e he
yea s, he e is some hing new e e y ime. People a e also e y p oud o hei houses
because i is he only hing hey ha e ha “belongs” o hem, so i is e y impo an
as all o his building is hei main ac i i y. In acc e ion in asions, he e is ac ually an
ac i i y ha iden i ies hem— sca enging— e en i no e e ybody does i .
PV: Isee, so i seems o ha e mo e o acoping dimension o i . Howe e , wha abou ee ime?
Do hey ha e any hobbies?
MJAR: Yes, de ini ely. Yes, Imean you see people playing socce , you see people hang-
ing a ound, d inking wi h hei iends and cha ing, al hough he e is alo o bo e-
dom as well and no so much o do in hese neighbo hoods. Ican ecall an image o
mysel one Sa u day a e noon in he middle o one o hese neighbo hoods in Mon-
e ideo. Iwas si ing he e wai ing o some hing o happen and i go so bo ing.
The e was no s o e Icould go o, o buy an apple o wha e e , nobody o cha wi h; i
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PETR AŠáT 109
was an emp y public space and many o hese neighbo hoods a e like ha — hey a e
e y bo ing places. In Colombia my expe ience is di e en . The e is always aneigh-
bo hood bake y you can en e and ha e abee , an empanada o aco ee.
PV: Tha ’s e y in e es ing. Iha e one las ques ion o you. I ead you pape on clien elism
and i eminded me o he si ua ion ela ed o he pos -socialis con ex . The e is an asym-
me ical di e ence in he concep ualiza ion o clien elism. To pu i b ie ly, when you sea ch
o ajob in he US o Wes e n coun ies and a e ne wo king amongs connec ions, schola s
concep ualize i as using “weak ies”; ye , i you sea ch o ajob in his way, o ins ance, in
he Czech Republic o in o he pos -socialis coun ies, schola s end o concep ualize i as
clien elism. I is basically he same hing, bu he e is asymme y in e ms o knowledge p o-
duc ion. The la e e okes aso o sho age o ca ching up o Wes e n socie ies, as one uses
connec ions in some subs anda d o old- ashioned way o ind ajob.
MJAR: In many o he neighbo hoods Idid esea ch on in Mon e ideo he e we e
ies o di e en poli ical pa ies. I is no necessa ily clien elism because in he U u-
guayan poli ical sys em i is no ha easy o moni o who o ed o whom. Ye , he e
is de ini ely an exchange o a o s o possible poli ical suppo . Squa e s use po-
li ical ne wo ks as pa o hei su i al s a egies o ge goods and se ices o hei
neighbo hoods, such as oad building. In some o he con ex s, exchanges a e mo e
pe sonalized, like money o o es. People end o see clien elism as some hing bad,
bu Isee i as asu i al s a egy like any o he . I you hink abou i , he ich also y
o in luence poli icians and ha e links o hem. And ye , wha hey do is called lobby-
ing, no clien elism. Ne wo ks a e impo an e e ywhe e and poo people ha e used
hem o su i e— hey use amilial, iendship, and poli ical ne wo ks.
PV: Ma ia, hank you, e e y hing ha you ha e men ioned oday is e y in e es ing and in-
spi ing. Thank you e y much o he in e iew and you ime as well.
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